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Daggers and Edged Weapons Forum This is the corner of the site where you can talk about daggers, bayonets, swords and knifes of the Wehrmacht and related organizations.

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Old 02-11-2019, 04:37 PM   #91
Frogprince
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If we look at the "Trolon" plastic grips - and how they were originally made it was in the form of smooth cylinders without any kind of grooves at all. The cylinders were cut to length and then machined that would leave tool marks from the machining. They were then polished to remove/minimize the tool marks. The images here I believe possibly (because of the artificial lighting) not showing the true color, and not close enough to try and evaluate the surface textures. FP

PS: Taking another quick look I also see at least 5 pinholes in the plastic grip posted. I'm not sure why that is and will have to think about it.

Last edited by Frogprince; 02-11-2019 at 04:46 PM. Reason: additional comment
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:57 PM   #92
Serge M.
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I should add that besides the Seilheimer black trolon gripped Army dagger. I have seen, or have owned Eickhorn, Tiger and WKC. All of which had the gloss Trolon grip.
None of which ever showed any evidence of a prior painted surface.

-Serge
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:43 PM   #93
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TR period factory invoices for black grips could be of some benefit, but nobody made their own plastics. Not even a 'Big Dog' maker like Eickhorn. They all subcontracted from other companies. And there was a limited pool of who made the different elements further upstream. Some period grips even having indicators of multiple blade makers using the same grips from one company. My point being that grips could be easily switched out, so assigning definitive identities with a limited pool of data points might be problematic. FP
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:01 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr01 View Post
I agree on all the points above. I would like to add one more. The black grip army daggers never have an early crossguard. Mostly they are found with the generic B crossguard (Klaas) and sometimes a type 4 Eickhorn crossguard. Everyone who knows anything about army daggers knows that the first army daggers were produced in 1935 and all have some kind of early crossguard. The generic types were not produced in this early stage of production.

To me a dagger with a generic B or Eickhorn type 4 crossguard can never be produced in 1935. With or without a black grip.

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Danny

My experience also.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:46 PM   #95
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Hi Sergey!
I remember the first time I saw one of these I was about 12 and at the Syracuse show. A guy was trying to sell a 2nd Luft and told us it was for the colored troops in the Luftwaffe. Ultimately we decided it must have been fake or as Victor would have said "humped up"! We figured that because as far as I know the Luftwaffe never used any "colored troops".
It is really common to find these grips cracked and I have owned many that were cracked and chipped. They are absolutely solid all of the way through.
Interesting on the makers, a trusted friend told me he saw one Eickhorn that he felt was correct, the grip had the proper shape. He also saw one Horster that he felt was original.
Fred, Why do I care? I care because you damage original items and their history based on your hypothesis which are very often wrong. You don't seem to be able to admit to owning more then "maybe" one or two WWII German dress daggers, no wonder you are wrong so often, no real experience collecting WWII German Dress Daggers. I would be very happy to never have to contest you again but......
See you at the SOS!
Bob
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:49 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobI View Post
Hi Sergey!
I remember the first time I saw one of these I was about 12 and at the Syracuse show. .................................................. .....

Fred, Why do I care? I care because you damage original items and their history based on your hypothesis which are very often wrong. You don't seem to be able to admit to owning more then "maybe" one or two WWII German dress daggers, no wonder you are wrong so often, no real experience collecting WWII German Dress Daggers. I would be very happy to never have to contest you again but......
See you at the SOS!
Bob
Bob, I’m sure that your altruistic motives will appeal to your peer group reading this thread. But I think that you've been misinformed because I have never, ever physically damaged a TR item genuine or fake that belonged to someone else. And that includes a small batch of those fake “SS” etched bayonets that a friend purchased. Full disclosure however, compels me to tell you that I did threaten to take them to the street in front of his house and drive back and forth over them. And what is so important about actually owning something? Does expert testimony about something in a museum mean that the museum expert actually has to own the item instead of studying, handling, and/or borrowing it? (And you still have no idea what I have, and/or have owned in the past.)

I also did not destroy history by simply reporting what a very competent/serious period document specialist had to say about the existence of a supposed 1st Model Railway dagger. But now that you’ve brought it up, and seem to be very interested in the topic - as an owner/dealer/expert. How knowledgeable are you about the German Railway system, its history and what led up to the to the creation of the so-called 2nd Model dagger? Fred
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:14 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrice View Post
We all know by now who was the first person to ever start the theory on the 1935 Railway dagger, T.J. even had a picture of the 1935 Railway dagger in wear. If Ron or others ( silent experts ) have that picture, it would be nice to have it here.
Another important question, why in the world would such an obscure organisation borrow the Heer dagger as their model ? In 1935 there was no shortage of materials and they could've very well make their own design.
No dagger-man, I am, but I really would like to see this so-called 1935-photograph?

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Old 02-12-2019, 05:19 AM   #98
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I have a feeling that we will not see these photo.


Schlange

https://mojalbum.com/schlange88

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=916564
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:55 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Schlange View Post
I have a feeling that we will not see these photo.
Schlange
Me neither, but one never knows.
Most of these "experts" have not ever heard about proper uniform-regulations for the Bahnschutz-organization. They just believe what they believe or have heard, which in many occasions is questionable!!
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:19 AM   #100
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Why is the so called 1st model railway dagger thought to have been introduced in 1935, what we call the 2nd model railway was i believe introduced in 1941, so IF real, could the 1st model not have been introduced anywhere between 1936 and early 1941, the generic B crossguard was introduced in 36 and the Eickhorn type 4 crossguard was introduced in 37, both before 41.

I'm still non the wiser with this 1st model but some good points were made on the warrelics forum thread about the longer grip and blade tang seen on the Klaas examples which could not be explained. One scenario could be that Klaas were producing a different type of dagger with the longer grip and blade and for one reason or another used some for their army dagger production, and because they were for armies they painted the grips white, so now we see them on two types of daggers. Just a thought but still non the wiser.

Russ.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:01 AM   #101
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If you guys read the thread you will realize we do not say it is absolutely for sure a 1st model RR dagger. If you read the thread and what some of us wrote you will see these daggers have had different names over the years.
On a separate note, if you guys are so up on research, do you own the Tom Johnsons books? They are really a staple if you want to collect daggers. They are basic but good in many ways, Witmans books are extremely complex. I barley know Tom so it is not like he showed me a secret picture, it appears in one of his books. You can look through his books and find the picture.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:16 AM   #102
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Maybe someone can show the photo from 1935. I cannot post photos here, nor do I own any of TJ or other dagger-books. For me the worn uniform is interesting!
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:10 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
Why is the so called 1st model railway dagger thought to have been introduced in 1935, what we call the 2nd model railway was i believe introduced in 1941, so IF real, could the 1st model not have been introduced anywhere between 1936 and early 1941, the generic B crossguard was introduced in 36 and the Eickhorn type 4 crossguard was introduced in 37, both before 41.

I'm still non the wiser with this 1st model but some good points were made on the warrelics forum thread about the longer grip and blade tang seen on the Klaas examples which could not be explained. One scenario could be that Klaas were producing a different type of dagger with the longer grip and blade and for one reason or another used some for their army dagger production, and because they were for armies they painted the grips white, so now we see them on two types of daggers. Just a thought but still non the wiser.

Russ.
Russ, If we step back from this topic and look at the context of the time and how things were made IMO it’s just a minor manufacturing variation and nothing more. A private purchase, not a military inspected item (and no computer assisted drawings ) one of the ways that information to manufacturers was distributed was to send examples around to be copied. And sometimes because of in-house equipment limitations that factor also has to be taken into consideration. Fred
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:17 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobI View Post
If you guys read the thread you will realize we do not say it is absolutely for sure a 1st model RR dagger. If you read the thread and what some of us wrote you will see these daggers have had different names over the years.
On a separate note, if you guys are so up on research, do you own the Tom Johnsons books? They are really a staple if you want to collect daggers. They are basic but good in many ways, Witmans books are extremely complex. I barley know Tom so it is not like he showed me a secret picture, it appears in one of his books. You can look through his books and find the picture.
Atwood's book not TMJ is earlier - generally using a curious blend of his and/or assistant’s photos mixed in with some generic period ones. But no in-use dagger photos the so-called “1st Model” pictured and described is a postwar photo. Early TMJ likewise uses a blend of photos, and although he has been found to have on occasion used some of Atwood’s material, the not-in-use-photo of a dagger that he uses he says is a WKC. FP
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:46 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
Why is the so called 1st model railway dagger thought to have been introduced in 1935, what we call the 2nd model railway was i believe introduced in 1941, so IF real, could the 1st model not have been introduced anywhere between 1936 and early 1941, the generic B crossguard was introduced in 36 and the Eickhorn type 4 crossguard was introduced in 37, both before 41. ............
Russ, A couple of short followup answers:

1) !935 saw the Reichsbahn authorizing the wearing of edged weapons (swords and bayonets) by the Bahnschutz with knots. Although it may have been believed earlier by collectors/dealers - the first book that I know of with the so-called "1st Model Railway" dagger with a 1935 date was Atwood. That was followed by the book from TMJ (Johnson).

2) The so-called "2nd Model Railway" dagger is actually the Dolch für Bahnschutz-Führer that was introduced in limited numbers possibly a year or two prior to 1938. After a slow start, the new uniforms (1936 for Berlin) that accompanied the daggers in general use as I understand it by early 1938.

3) Early 1941 saw the RVM authorizing a change of uniforms for the Bahnschutzpolizei to distinguish them from other Reichsbahn officials. And a new dagger that never made it into large scale production - as a precursor to the general shutdown of dagger production as non-essential to the war effort.

If anyone who's interested looks at the the timelines of how Solingen was actually making the different items (including those for the Wehrmacht). I think it can be seen that the myth of the so-called "1st Model Railway" daggers is/was in all probability the product of vivid imaginations, and arguably designed to extract more money from collectors.

Fred
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