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Old 12-04-2019, 10:39 AM   #91
lnijherald
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It is a post-war Belgium made smock with a fake army flying badge, fake ordnance date stamp and random costume label added to increase the market value, which, given the seller, does not surprise me a bit.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLD-WW2-D.../233361200902?


Luc
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Old 12-04-2019, 11:49 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by lnijherald View Post
It is a post-war Belgium made smock with a fake army flying badge, fake ordnance date stamp and random costume label added to increase the market value, which, given the seller, does not surprise me a bit.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLD-WW2-D.../233361200902?


Luc
Notice the seller has sold some other film related items in the past.Are they questionable?
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Old 12-04-2019, 02:57 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnijherald View Post
It is a post-war Belgium made smock with a fake army flying badge, fake ordnance date stamp and random costume label added to increase the market value, which, given the seller, does not surprise me a bit.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLD-WW2-D.../233361200902?


Luc
Thanks for your response Luc. For what it's worth, I have a number of A Bridge Too Far props, and this is entirely consistent with them. The label is right, and it matches the costumers tag which I found in the pocket (and the seller didn't mention). In fact the ad doesn't mention ABTF at all, so I don't think the seller was aware or cared about that feature. If it was faked to add value on those grounds, it wasn't a very good grift. Regardless, the basics of the smock are still relevant to the thread, no? It has a label, is clearly a British smock, and has been modified in Belgian use. The WD stamp I agree looks a bit suspect though.
I think the army flying patch was part of the costume, so of course it's a repro. Note the costume label says Glider pilot.

Last edited by D Stirk; 12-04-2019 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:03 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by D Stirk View Post
a British smock, and has been modified in Belgian use

The smocks that sparked this thread are WW2 British made and modified by the Belgium paras after the war.


What you have is a post-war Belgium made smock, with an unmodified button up neck see (cuffes have been added):
http://kommandopost.com/index.php/20...denison-smock/


Luc
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Old 12-09-2019, 01:29 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by lnijherald View Post
The smocks that sparked this thread are WW2 British made and modified by the Belgium paras after the war.


What you have is a post-war Belgium made smock, with an unmodified button up neck see (cuffes have been added):
http://kommandopost.com/index.php/20...denison-smock/


Luc
If it is Belgium made, how do you explain the British label and WD stamp, and the lack of a Belgian label? Granted the stamp may have been added later, but I'm sure the label wasn't.

A number of times in the thread contributors said they would like to see one of these button collar smocks with a label and stamp in, and questioned why they hadn't seen one yet. Mine has both.
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Old 12-13-2019, 11:09 AM   #96
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The Belgium label is placed inside the collar (if I recall well), so it could be underneath the Bermans & Nathan label.


British label, what British label? I see a piece of white cloth with nothing on it?
The edges have not been folded, that is very rarely seen. They do sometimes get loose due to wear and tear but not completely as is found here. Also, it is placed below the seam of one of the lower pockets. Normally when it is placed there it is tucked under the seam prior to stitching, I am not aware it was ever done otherwise. Also, you will notice that the label is stitched on with a thread that does not match the rest of the smock. Not only the colour but also the length of the stitches. I have never seen this.


The broad arrow, it does not have the proper shape and the printing isn't solid.



For me, the label and stamp are later added fakes to make it look like a British made smock.


Luc
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Old 12-13-2019, 11:20 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by lnijherald View Post
The Belgium label is placed inside the collar (if I recall well), so it could be underneath the Bermans & Nathan label.


British label, what British label? I see a piece of white cloth with nothing on it?
The edges have not been folded, that is very rarely seen. They do sometimes get loose due to wear and tear but not completely as is found here. Also, it is placed below the seam of one of the lower pockets. Normally when it is placed there it is tucked under the seam prior to stitching, I am not aware it was ever done otherwise. Also, you will notice that the label is stitched on with a thread that does not match the rest of the smock. Not only the colour but also the length of the stitches. I have never seen this.


The broad arrow, it does not have the proper shape and the printing isn't solid.



For me, the label and stamp are later added fakes to make it look like a British made smock.


Luc
I would concur with all of your comments and also add that the fabric Bermans and Nathan labels are faked (I cannot say whether this one is) and that I do not like the look of the card label. The creasing looks very contrived, as if some one held it in their hand and scrunched it into a ball and I not seen these labels typed before. From labels that I have seen on movie props from a similar era they are hand written, which makes sense when you think of the hassle of putting labels into a typewriter.
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Old 12-16-2019, 07:31 AM   #98
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There is an interesting blog on B&N labels here.



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Old 12-21-2019, 04:01 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by lnijherald View Post
The Belgium label is placed inside the collar (if I recall well), so it could be underneath the Bermans & Nathan label.


British label, what British label? I see a piece of white cloth with nothing on it?
The edges have not been folded, that is very rarely seen. They do sometimes get loose due to wear and tear but not completely as is found here. Also, it is placed below the seam of one of the lower pockets. Normally when it is placed there it is tucked under the seam prior to stitching, I am not aware it was ever done otherwise. Also, you will notice that the label is stitched on with a thread that does not match the rest of the smock. Not only the colour but also the length of the stitches. I have never seen this.


The broad arrow, it does not have the proper shape and the printing isn't solid.



For me, the label and stamp are later added fakes to make it look like a British made smock.


Luc
I had the same thought about a Belgian label, so looked under the B & N label - sadly there wasn't one. The B & N label is identical to other film prop labels in garments I own.

I say British label, because it is a British label. You may not be able to pick up the writing in the pics, but it is there, and matches labels in many of my British smocks. You can just see the separate lines for sizing, maker and the title.

On the subject of the creased paper ABTF label, I will repeat myself, it was found in a pocket and was not mentioned in the Ebay listing. If this is some elaborate mock up and fraud (although for the life of me I don't know why) why not use that to bolster the case?

Regardless, I posted this not because I think it's ABTF prop, but because it seems to answer some of the questions posed on this thread. The differing material on the body and sleeves interests me. The body being identical to British smock material, the sleeves being similar to later Belgian smock material. Also, and I think this is important, the faded camo on the body does not match the vertical and horizontal stripes seen on the early Belgian smocks (and on the example you linked to Luc).

I think it's an interesting smock, and not the fraudulent item you believe. I don't think it is an amazing example of a British "experimental" smock.
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Old 12-21-2019, 04:29 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Grimebox View Post
I would concur with all of your comments and also add that the fabric Bermans and Nathan labels are faked (I cannot say whether this one is) and that I do not like the look of the card label. The creasing looks very contrived, as if some one held it in their hand and scrunched it into a ball and I not seen these labels typed before. From labels that I have seen on movie props from a similar era they are hand written, which makes sense when you think of the hassle of putting labels into a typewriter.
The B&N label fits the material and font of the real ones, according to the blog Luc linked to (which I have read before). Also, you don't have to look very far on the interwebs to find a similar B&N paper costume label, see attached. So if it's a fraud, it's a good one, but why...?
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File Type: jpg B&N label.jpg (40.7 KB, 62 views)
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Old 12-26-2019, 08:56 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by D Stirk View Post
The B&N label fits the material and font of the real ones, according to the blog Luc linked to (which I have read before). Also, you don't have to look very far on the interwebs to find a similar B&N paper costume label, see attached. So if it's a fraud, it's a good one, but why...?
.....to deceive and defraud. As simple as that. It turns a £150 post-war Belgian smock into a smock worth £375. The little additions (mentioned in the listing or otherwise) add to story, raise questions, muddy the water, etc. The ordinance stamp is clearly fake, that should start raising questions. The ‘British label’ would appear to be a recent addition - look at the whiteness of the stitching compared to the label. I can’t comment on the Bermans and Nathans fabric label, I don’t know enough about them. I’ve given my opinion on the paper label, all I can say is that it’s quite easy to copy type faces on paper. Ultimately it is a post war Belgian made smock. How do I know, because several years ago I bought an identical one with the same faded colours and same construction. I bought it off of eBay thinking it was a ‘rare Royal Marine’ button collar Denison before I knew more about Denison’s and spent the time researching books, internet, etc.
Ultimately if you are happy with it that’s all that matters. You asked what we thought of it and Luc (who I don’t know) and I gave our opinions. You don’t have to accept them, however, I think that the more that you look at Denisons the more you’ll see the colour difference between the British ones and the Belgian ones.
If you don’t have it I highly recommend the book ‘Denison (Smock) - British Airborne Specialist Clothing from WW2 to the Present Day’ by Bruce Wilson
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Old 12-26-2019, 12:02 PM   #102
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Thanks for your comments. You still seem to be under the impression that I think it is a British smock, rather than the obvious early Belgian smock it is. I don't contest that. I also agree that the WD stamp is suspect, and I'm on the fence about the label. Where do we differ? The material & camo making up the body compared to the arms of the smock, which you have not addressed at all. Yes, I have "Denison", and a sizeable and growing collection of both British and Belgian smocks with which to compare this smock to. For what it's worth, I don't think you have kept up with what smock prices are these days, Belgians included. I bought it as a film prop from ABTF, which I am confident it is. I also have a decent sized collection from this film, so I can compare labels and other costumer techniques. I also have the smock in hand, so there are plenty of things I can tell that aren't apparent on the pics.

I know what I bought, was relatively ok with the price, and thought it was a good candidate to answer some of the questions posed on this thread long ago. But if you'd rather tell me I'm naive, have bought a fake item, and condescend my knowledge of smocks, well, then I'm somewhat disappointed.

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