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Old 07-14-2012, 12:18 AM   #76
RussellM
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Hi Bob, no, not an adjective but a verb, and a whole sentence.

You seem to have missed the first line in Tom's description, so I'll spell it out, again:

"This early example proves that the Hitler Youth knife was made prior to the Nazis coming to power in 1933."

Prove: Demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument.

Regards

Russ
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:27 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobI View Post
I do not believe in the legitimacy of the green enameld pieces. 2. In nearly all cases of "fakes" that hit the market they can be traced back to a single source. I would love to see your research to prove these are fake.

In Tom's description "This oval trademark traces back to about the 1927 to 1929 period", I read it as Tom describing the TM and using it to date the knife, let me know if there is an important adjective I am missing. I like to think my 14 years of advanced education will allow me to interpret this properly but I guess I may need some help.

When legitimate research shows these as fake I will be very happy to video tape the destruction of the one I own.

Best Wishes,
Bob
Bob, I agree with you on the green emblem. But who says one batch or one source doing the modifications? Look at all of the aluminum “Party Day” small knives. The “Olympic” knives, and all of the various different combinations using the “BDM/DJ” type knives as a platform for modifications. Look at your own knives. The one (with the emblem at an angle) it has a flat or low profile rivet. The scabbard with the busted off emblem has a steel dome shaped rivet.

Heading out the door - I’ve got some places to go and people to see. Fred
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Old 07-14-2012, 09:39 AM   #78
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I hate to digress from the discussion on DJ and BDM knives (does Bill Shea still have his letter on his meeting with a former high ranking BDM lady and the use by that organization of the small knife?), but would like to add a few comments regarding Eickhorn maker marks.

The single oval maker mark, in several versions, was used by Eickhorn in between the back to back squirrel and the double oval maker marks. The double ovals were introduced sometime in 1933 according to Fisher. So, it is possible to have a single oval mark in use into the very early thirties.

The very early HJs and SAs with the early TMs and the different blade etches date from around the time the Nazi party took over, but there is a high possibility that some sort of dress daggers would have been ordered and worn by members of the party before they came into power.

I would take the single oval HJ, one of which I have in my own collection, and the single oval SA, which I have seen posted on forums maybe here or elsewhere, as also providing a high level of probability that these were in use prior to the formal takeover by the Nazi party.

John
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:58 AM   #79
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hi john - and thanks. innerstin'! d
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:45 AM   #80
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There is little point in debate if Mr Wittman's statement "This early example proves that the Hitler Youth knife was made prior to the Nazis coming to power in 1933." is going to be skewed to suit. Yes, of course he talks about the logo but only because he considers it proof for the pre-1933 existence of the knife he is selling there. This pattern (the standard early pattern) of HJ knife was NOT produced and distributed prior to the Nazis coming to power. With this knife there is no 'high possibility'.

Again I see the accusation that we sceptics aren't providing proof. Well, we can and we are. What exactly do those who believe in the 'DJ' and 'BDM' knives want to see? You don't see the evidence in the period regulations and other period documentation as relevant so what would convince you?

What do those who are pro 'BDM' and 'DJ' knife offer as evidence? This is what I see:

Mr Weinand's post-war letter
Mr Weinand's assurance that he received these knives from veterans
Mr Johnson's perennially absent authorisation showing that the DJ wore these 'DJ' knives
Post-war factory sweeps
The knives of course
Belief

Let's deal with those one by one:

Mr Weinand's letter from the ex-BDM member. I would need to see exactly what she wrote but such a letter can of course be negated instantly if I produce a letter from another old lady who says 'No, I wasn't issued one of those nice little knives and I never saw them or heard of them during my time in the movement'. I do know some very nice old ladies who were members of the BDM/JM and I'm sure that they would be happy to answer the question 'were you issued or awarded a special knife during your time in the BDM/JM and did you know this to be part of your uniform/equipment in the sense that the official knife worn by both the the HJ and DJ was a part of their uniform?' I can do that for you but as I already know that BDM/JM members were not issued with a knife produced specifically for them I wouldn't hold your breath. I am absolutely sure that the same would apply if I were to ask ex-DJ members about these so-called 'DJ' knives.

It is said of Mr Johnson's authorisation that it proves that the small knives were issued to DJ boys. This paperwork has never been produced to the collecting community and according to Mr Johnson it must be considered as lost. It would appear to be the case that no one other than Mr Johnson has ever seen the authorisation. That being the case we must view it as at best anecdotal and at worst irrelevant.

Parts obtained from factories in the post-war period. Parts of what? Parts of a 'DJ' knife? Parts of a souvenir knife? Parts of something else? Irrelevant unless someone can produce a complete knife salvaged from a factory with supporting documentation. Without the documentation or some other relevant indicator the existence of one of these knives in that setting is proof only that it was there. It is not proof for how long and why and it certainly isn't proof of its purpose.

Mr Weinand is adamant that he received examples of these knives from veterans. I have no reason to doubt him but veteran stories are not proof. At best they are circumstantial/anecdotal evidence.

Belief is not evidence.

In short, no tangible proof is offered by those who would have the buyer believe in the period existence of these knives and in their advertised status as 'BDM' and 'DJ' knives. The proof we offer is simply ignored and instead our detractors resort to closed-rank condescension and selective reading.

Conclusion? I'll leave that to the reader.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:27 AM   #81
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hello again, garry & thanks loads for thr addl. input.

'You don't see the evidence in the period regulations and other period documentation as relevant so what would convince you?'

like many, tho I'm pretty sure on the gut-level that my knife is pre-45,I remain t/b convinced either way. I would like to know, however, whether unbelievers' collections include *only* items for which period documentation exists; and if this is their sole criterion for buying decisions.

if so, that's certainly prudent. if not, from whence springs the near-vituperation on this particular score?
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:12 AM   #82
Garry M.
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Hi,

My problem with these knives is the matter-of-fact way they are described and sold by dealers. Whether they existed during the period is something we should all strive to discover because only then will we know what they really are. I am not excluding the possibility that they existed in some form prior to May the 8th 1945 but rather that these knives are what the dealers say they are and whether the huge price tag can be justified. More importantly: does the item description reflect historical fact?

I don't collect any more as I have more fun with the research side than I did with pure collecting. However, when I was collecting there was only one item I remember where I would not have been able to answer the question 'prove that this item existed during the TR period'. It was a locally-produced chain-stitched sleeve patch said to have been worn by a DJ unit in Berlin and is the only one known to have survived. I sold it a few years ago but I would buy it back in a flash. However, even with that item there were facts I could rely on like the history of the unit and the well-documented events surrounding the death of the boy being honoured. So, it was a combination of verifiable fact, item appearance/construction and gut feeling. I always felt more secure with that combination.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:30 AM   #83
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I have some remembrance of the Bill Shea discussion and the BDM and might or might not have a transcript of the discussion on an older computer that I still have. With what I’m trying to remember was it “the” small knife? Or just an ordinary small hunting/camp knife? Like those we see with some period HJ photos on their belts instead of the standard HJ-DJ knives? With one of the scabbard diamond small knives he had for sale in 2007(?) providing me with a very interesting “modification” of one of these small knives that made no sense.

In looking at it again last night, it triggered a memory about an example I saw in one of the TMJ books that made sense to me at the time because I thought that he seemed to be knowledgeable. But I now know was just a fake that got past him big time. That said, I can see how fakers were able to “get over” on writers and collectors who looked at items and thought that they looked “real” to them. It looked “real” to me at the time as well. But that was then. And now the same scam is probably not going to work as well - although there are always those who seem to be a little ‘behind the curve’. Which is where the more out of date fakes seem to end up. Fred
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:01 AM   #84
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noted with thanks, garry. well spoke.

DW
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:04 AM   #85
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Proof of the existance of Pre-HJ Knives before the 1933 takeover DOES exist. Here is a photo of the Gladiator (Carl Wusthof) manufactured type knife with the engraved pommel (strap around the center of the grip where on the later style HJ Knife would have had the diamond) and the elongated crossguard are evident in this early photo. Note the round rising sun and swastika style insignia on the hat that is the pre-raute insignia of the youth.
This is a knife not found in catalogs or period literature that is know at this time, but a period photo tells the story.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg untitled.bmp.jpg (102.0 KB, 107 views)
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:10 AM   #86
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GaryM: I never said I had a letter from a BDM Member. Where did this originate?
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:27 AM   #87
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cheers, fred.

we remain after all this in deep-murk mode. now, per previous, what might be most useful for the membership here and elsewhere is for the heavy-duty researchers amongst us to ferret out and EXPOSE the fakers.

granted, that'd be perhaps easier using the aforesaid 'zoom lenses' and capturing the 'artisans' at work than proving individual dealers are bent. (fair to say very few are.)

but then perhaps not....

no matter the Righteous Cause, making pictures of people for publication w/o permission can get you sued. as to the other, although truth is the classic legal defense to libel, would-be 'outers' obv. need to think long and hard about whether they have a) absolute ironclad proof of charlatanry,

and b) whether, even if so, they've the time and $ to devote to getting him/them (?) convicted of fraud in the first go-round. and of course not forgetting appeals, counter-suits etc.

bit of a slippery slope, unfortunately. but with passions inflamed and minus proof, maybe the only way to go. russ and garry, over to you!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogprince View Post
I have some remembrance of the Bill Shea discussion and the BDM and might or might not have a transcript of the discussion on an older computer that I still have. With what I’m trying to remember was it “the” small knife? Or just an ordinary small hunting/camp knife? Like those we see with some period HJ photos on their belts instead of the standard HJ-DJ knives? With one of the scabbard diamond small knives he had for sale in 2007(?) providing me with a very interesting “modification” of one of these small knives that made no sense.

In looking at it again last night, it triggered a memory about an example I saw in one of the TMJ books that made sense to me at the time because I thought that he seemed to be knowledgeable. But I now know was just a fake that got past him big time. That said, I can see how fakers were able to “get over” on writers and collectors who looked at items and thought that they looked “real” to them. It looked “real” to me at the time as well. But that was then. And now the same scam is probably not going to work as well - although there are always those who seem to be a little ‘behind the curve’. Which is where the more out of date fakes seem to end up. Fred
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:55 AM   #88
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gosh thanks ron, great early pic -

could this be the eureka moment?!

interesting that the knife's scabbard is a little worse for the wear, testimony to the hard life most 'camp knives' had to endure - already some paint's flecked off!

again, really appreciate your scouring archves for this important image. dw
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:55 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Weinand View Post
Proof of the existance of Pre-HJ Knives before the 1933 takeover DOES exist. Here is a photo of the Gladiator (Carl Wusthof) manufactured type knife with the engraved pommel (strap around the center of the grip where on the later style HJ Knife would have had the diamond) and the elongated crossguard are evident in this early photo. Note the round rising sun and swastika style insignia on the hat that is the pre-raute insignia of the youth.
This is a knife not found in catalogs or period literature that is know at this time, but a period photo tells the story.
Hi, Ron !

Please, would you let us know, which is the source of this image, (respectively, where´s the image originating) ?

Thx. in advance,

R.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:57 AM   #90
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ron - what's the sleeve insignia?
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