wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Era Militaria > Tinnies & Political Badges Forum

Tinnies & Political Badges Forum All Political badges, Hitler Youth, Sports/Veteran organizations and Tinnies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Eagle order 3rd v. 5th class
Old 02-06-2020, 11:25 PM   #1
Dante Gambino
Member
 
Dante Gambino's Avatar
 
Dante Gambino is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: north east
Posts: 304
Default Eagle order 3rd v. 5th class

Ok, so maybe someone can shed some light on this for me, because im a little confused. Germandaggers.com seems to have the best comparison of various eagle order and how they varied before 1943. So both the 3rd and 5th class are 45mm
and both can be found with the ball on top of the fan with a standard ribbon loop to finish. So at first look they are interactable. But then I see info scattered about a mark at the top right of the fan. Lets a assume we are talking about a 900/21 loop marked Godet. According to german daggers.com, Godet didn't put this mark on the loop until '43 which according to the pictures on german daggers.com makes it a 5th class. So I guess the question can be more specific to ask, did godet put this mark on 3rd classes made with in the ball on fan style? And/or are there also marks on the top right side of the fan on any known 3rd class orders?

This all might mean a pile of beans anyway as it seems prices are all over the place and orders described as 5th class are selling for the same $$ as those described as 3rd class. I see some dealers labeling them as "eagle order 3rd/5th class", and maybe its because they don't even know.

I seem to be running into these more regularly now and want to make sure im correct when I list them for sale.

Thanks for you help!
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-07-2020, 07:10 PM   #2
Erich B.
Moderator
 
Erich B.'s Avatar
 
Erich B. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 7,634
Default

I remember having a 5th class with swords that had the '21' and '5' stamped, I believe, on the fan.
Erich
__________________
Festina lente!
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-08-2020, 09:35 PM   #3
Dante Gambino
Member
 
Dante Gambino's Avatar
 
Dante Gambino is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: north east
Posts: 304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich B. View Post
I remember having a 5th class with swords that had the '21' and '5' stamped, I believe, on the fan.
Erich

Right, but what does the 5 signify? 5th class? so with no 5 its a 3rd class? This is the part that's not clear. Ive read that there were other ancillary marks in this location as well.
  Reply With Quote

class
Old 02-09-2020, 06:31 AM   #4
ironfist
Association Member
 
ironfist's Avatar
 
ironfist is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: England
Posts: 1,830
Default class

the 5 denotes 5th class
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-09-2020, 07:16 PM   #5
Erich B.
Moderator
 
Erich B.'s Avatar
 
Erich B. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 7,634
Default

At the time, I thought it was self evident that the '5' meant it was a 5th class. There was a silver mark, the '21' maker's code, and the '5'. Do you have an idea that it might stand for something else?
Erich
__________________
Festina lente!
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2020, 01:25 AM   #6
Peter J.
Member
 
Peter J.'s Avatar
 
Peter J. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sweden
Posts: 3,785
Default

Erich, if it only was that easy. Like you said, a "3" on the fan would indicate a 3.Stufe and a "5" consequently a 5.Klasse. That was the prevailing consensus for many years, but how do we explain i.g. "4" on a 3.Klasse, "12" on a 1.Klasse and "2" on a Grosskeuz. Finding a "3" or a "10" on the hinge of a 4.Klasse is also rather difficult to explain.


Dante, it's the same thing with the timeframe. Angolia suggests 1943, conveniently coinsiding with the introduction of the new classes. However it's generally believed the PK-numbers were introduced already in mid-1942 (at least for the KC's). I've encountered a 3.Stufe with both "21" on the ring and "3" on the top of the fan.



cheers
Peter
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-10-2020, 01:23 PM   #7
Erich B.
Moderator
 
Erich B.'s Avatar
 
Erich B. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 7,634
Default

I didn't realize the numbering was so diverse--I had the 5th class, a silver medal and 2 bronze medals about 40 years ago. I still remember the markings. Since then I've handled and examined numerous DAOs but wasn't aware of and hadn't seen this sort of variety of markings, so was not aware that they are so hard to pin down.
Erich
__________________
Festina lente!
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-11-2020, 02:11 AM   #8
Dante Gambino
Member
 
Dante Gambino's Avatar
 
Dante Gambino is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: north east
Posts: 304
Default

To be honest, I thought all eagle orders this size with a ball on fan were 5th class, until I started poking around a little more and saw the same exact style being described as a 3rd class. Then publishing to backing it up, but without a ton of clarity. I forget where, maybe it was a thread on WAF about letter markings on the fans of 3rd or 5th class as well. Which pretty much screws up everything. But lets say in terms of pure volume of known examples, a 5 stamp is a 5th class and any other stamp (or non at all) must be a 3rd class? Is that the consensus? And even if that were true...does it matter? Since 3rd and 5th classes seem to be selling for (on average) the same price? I think that alone is enough of a case to say that no one really knows what they are buying...or selling lol
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-11-2020, 05:32 AM   #9
Peter J.
Member
 
Peter J.'s Avatar
 
Peter J. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sweden
Posts: 3,785
Default

Dante, I understand your confusion and I've emphasized for years the importance of using the concepts "Stufe" or "Klasse" in discussions dealing with markings. The 45mm cross from 1937 didn't feature a fan, only a ribbon ring attached to a jump-ring. This cross and all other crosses for wear on ribbon had a fan introduced 1939 or possibly earlier. They also had a "ball" at the top of the fan, except for the 1.Stufe/3.Klasse, which had a small ring where the elonged ribbon loop was attached.


The first fanned types were marked "900" on the ribbon ring. In the light of the previously mentioned anomalies, any crosses with the "3" on the top of the fan are most probably indeed the Dritte Stufe (3.Stufe). If we accept the introduction of the PK-numbers to around mid-1942, they could also feature a "21" (most crosses feature only the "900" though). In Dec. 1943 the number of classes was extended and this cross was renamed "5.Klasse". This class usually feature "900", "5" and "21". Short version.


"Since 3rd and 5th classes seem to be selling for (on average) the same price? I think that alone is enough of a case to say that no one really knows what they are buying...or selling lol",


This is of course one way of looking at it and partly true, the only difference between a 3.Stufe and 5.Klasse is after all only the markings. My concern is simple: by incorrectly (possibly) mislabelling a decoration based on markings, the risk of ruling out perfectly legit groups (decoration, case and document) is impending. I'm not sure we'll ever find the full story about markings, but we need to be careful about putting our conclusions in stone.


cheers
Peter
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-16-2020, 08:20 AM   #10
Dante Gambino
Member
 
Dante Gambino's Avatar
 
Dante Gambino is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: north east
Posts: 304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J. View Post
Dante, I understand your confusion and I've emphasized for years the importance of using the concepts "Stufe" or "Klasse" in discussions dealing with markings. The 45mm cross from 1937 didn't feature a fan, only a ribbon ring attached to a jump-ring. This cross and all other crosses for wear on ribbon had a fan introduced 1939 or possibly earlier. They also had a "ball" at the top of the fan, except for the 1.Stufe/3.Klasse, which had a small ring where the elonged ribbon loop was attached.


The first fanned types were marked "900" on the ribbon ring. In the light of the previously mentioned anomalies, any crosses with the "3" on the top of the fan are most probably indeed the Dritte Stufe (3.Stufe). If we accept the introduction of the PK-numbers to around mid-1942, they could also feature a "21" (most crosses feature only the "900" though). In Dec. 1943 the number of classes was extended and this cross was renamed "5.Klasse". This class usually feature "900", "5" and "21". Short version.


"Since 3rd and 5th classes seem to be selling for (on average) the same price? I think that alone is enough of a case to say that no one really knows what they are buying...or selling lol",


This is of course one way of looking at it and partly true, the only difference between a 3.Stufe and 5.Klasse is after all only the markings. My concern is simple: by incorrectly (possibly) mislabelling a decoration based on markings, the risk of ruling out perfectly legit groups (decoration, case and document) is impending. I'm not sure we'll ever find the full story about markings, but we need to be careful about putting our conclusions in stone.


cheers
Peter


Thanks Peter,

I just wanted others to chime in on the markings so that I know how to advertise these in the future. I want to make sure I'm transparent as possible when I sell stuff. Much appreciated.
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-16-2020, 09:37 AM   #11
Peter J.
Member
 
Peter J.'s Avatar
 
Peter J. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sweden
Posts: 3,785
Default

Dante, that's a decent attitude
cheers
Peter
  Reply With Quote

ok
Old 02-16-2020, 04:26 PM   #12
ironfist
Association Member
 
ironfist's Avatar
 
ironfist is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: England
Posts: 1,830
Default ok

So what donates a 3rd class from a 5th class is it the case ????
  Reply With Quote

Old 02-17-2020, 10:30 AM   #13
Peter J.
Member
 
Peter J.'s Avatar
 
Peter J. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sweden
Posts: 3,785
Default

Hi Pete,


A case alone would not define the difference, as a set can easiily be put together. Both the fanned classes are identical, only the change in 1943 in regards of a new title is the actual difference. I believe the assumption of numbers stamped on the top of the fan (or on the hinge of the Stars) indeed signifies the class intended (even with the forementioned anomalies in mind). So if we accept that in conjunction with an introduction of the PK-numbers mid-1942, the following scenario is IMHO possible to make:

Starting with the introduction of the fanned type (1939 or earlier). These crosses generally feature only "900" on the ribbon ring and occasionally a "3" on the fan for Dritter Stufe (3rd Grade).

From the introduction of L-numbers 1941, crosses for retail were marked "L/50" and "900". Whether or not they also featured a "3" I wouldn't know, because I've never seen one. For obvious reasons you'll not find any PK number (21) on these crosses.

The crosses from 1943 generally feature "900" and "21", but can only be positively indentified as a "5.Klasse" (5th class) with the presence of a "5" on the fan.

All this leads to yet another possibility. The 1939 type with "900" and no number on the fan, but, with a "21" on the ring could actually be a "Dritter Stufe" from mid-1942 IMHO. These crosses have routinely been labeled "5.Klasse" for years.

I hope this explains your question in an understandable way

cheers
Peter
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com