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Cloth Headgear Forum Covers officer visor, overseas caps, field caps, and any cloth headgear.

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Old 12-06-2018, 08:43 PM   #76
RGD51
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I’ll see if my buddy can send some pix to Tim OK as he’s done in the past. Wagners cap eagles can be found totally handsewn or machine stitched.... zip and flip style. His cap has grenadier soutache and the coppery style bevo rosette. So we can assume mrz ‘42 was a time of change....an M40 fieldcap with cotton rosette but yet a sidecap dated mrz ‘42 with coppery bevo rosette.

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Old 12-06-2018, 09:10 PM   #77
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Thanks Robert.

Mike, I assume you've tried a magnet on the grommets, and that they're not actually plated steel?

Robert, perhaps you could ask your friend the same thing?
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:36 AM   #78
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It's the one Clemens Wagner tropical M40 cap that I don't have a problem with. It is difficult to judge it by comparing to other caps because, as far as we know, it is one of a kind remaining.
You definitely can't compare it to any other makers.
I don't think the peak is different material, possibly just the angle of the bolt of cloth used to construct it. Notice how the ribbing within the cloth runs in a different direction to that on the body of the cap.
The application of the eagle and cockade are definitely consistent with the application of those on Clemens Wagner sidecaps and the Clemens Wagner stamp is spot on.
On a side note, I'm actually surprised that the Karl Kubach sidecap from the same collection on Mikes site hasn't sold yet. It is a very scarce cap considering that you don't see sidecaps from this maker and it is used (not from the beehive find).


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Old 12-07-2018, 06:25 AM   #79
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I of course acknowledge the validity of a consensus amongst several respected authorities and agree anyway that the cap looks promising. But I'm still struggling with the grommets. I spent a bit of time last night looking for non-tropical, as well as tropical Clemens Wagner sidecaps. The two non-tropical ones I found also had 'normal' zinc grommets. Has anyone else seen a Clemens Wagner or any other make of sidecap with grommets like this cap's?
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:30 AM   #80
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Regarding the grommets one common denominator is the way they corrode. We usually see white, chalky deposits around the grommets of the trop caps caused by moisture, air, age......a character of zinc. We’d see rust if steel. Fabrics run a very interesting spectrum from good quality, colorfast, trikot twills into frugal, utilitarian, fabrics showing variegated striations within the cloth. Posted on this forum some time ago was a very light colored cap by Halfar that was made with what looked like mattress ticking. Also a very interesting two toned cap made by Lubstein that was made with both olive and tan trikot twill. Some Lubstein caps can be found in a lite weight canvas or duck as well.

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Old 12-07-2018, 09:17 AM   #81
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Well, interestingly, the grommets are magnetic. I had not thought to check that. The bill's fabric seems to be the same as that used to make the rest of the cap.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:03 PM   #82
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Not what I was hoping to read. All the steel grommets I know of in tropical caps (Army & KM) appear to have been pre-cut to split into eight. I wonder if these ones could be the same as the brassy-looking six-pinned ones seen Continental caps? I don't know whether these are steel or not. The only other parallels I know of (and these are not exact) are in old repros.

My fabric comment of course is a distraction from the main issue: the grommets. It is perfectly clear from Mike's pictures that this cap is not a rebuilt sidecap.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:38 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike donne View Post
But I'm still struggling with the grommets. I spent a bit of time last night looking for non-tropical, as well as tropical Clemens Wagner sidecaps. The two non-tropical ones I found also had 'normal' zinc grommets. Has anyone else seen a Clemens Wagner or any other make of sidecap with grommets like this cap's?

I have seen this type of grommet on an original tropical side-cap made by Clemens Wagner. It is shown in this thread post numbers 26 to 28 (also see post 12 & 60 for another example);

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=501594

It is the four grommet side-cap from the "Beehive" find without maker stamp. I recently purchased this cap to add to my collection of tropical side-caps. Thus I have it in hand and have been all over it with a fine tooth and comb.

When compared to my other three CW tropical side-caps that I have here in hand, it is definitely a product made by them. The twill used, the lining Poplin, the eagle, the cockade, the soutache. the sewing and especially the font of the size 57 stamp. All manufacturing footprints of CW.

As far as the 4 grommets go, they are magnetic with a gold/ brass plating as seen on prewar and early war continental side-caps. What is interesting is the brown enamel because it is not enamel at all. It is simply a period over paint of whatever colour is underneath.

I can but speculate as to why CW used this type of magnetic grommet in their four grommet tropical side caps i.e. shortage of zinc ones, using up old stock, sub-contractor ???

The useful thing about the Beehive find, we know for sure the 4 grommet side-caps were found there along side all the other CW side-caps found. But not many 4 grommets were found and they are scarce on the market today.

I have pondered the billed tropical M40 cap dated 1942 on Mike Davis site. IMO it is an original Clemens Wagner cap in every way, especially once I matched the grommets with my side-cap.

This made me have a rethink about tropical billed M40 caps made by CW. I do not accept that any were made in 1940 or 1941. My belief and research is that Clemens Wagner made tropical caps in early 1942 as part of the greatly expanded production of tropical uniforms by an increased number of manufacturers to meet demand,

Chris

p.s. on my Clemens Wagner tropical sidecaps, I have more than one type of tropical eagle, cockade and twill used by them to make their caps.

Last edited by 90th Light; 12-07-2018 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:43 PM   #84
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Agreed, they're the same. Have you a photo showing the eagle from the front? I have seen two different types of eagles on Wagner sidecaps. If yours was the same as that on the M40, that would be a third.

The 'prewar and early war continental side-caps' are difinitely steel, are they? If so, I guess that swings it. Very interesting.

Robert, is your friend's also a four grommeter?
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:30 PM   #85
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No, he has a sidecap not a visor.....post # 72. Its grommets and mrz ‘42 stamp is like the Davis cap. He’ll be forwarding his pix soon i think.

Robt.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:03 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike donne View Post
Agreed, they're the same. Have you a photo showing the eagle from the front? I have seen two different types of eagles on Wagner sidecaps. If yours was the same as that on the M40, that would be a third.

The 'prewar and early war continental side-caps' are difinitely steel, are they? If so, I guess that swings it. Very interesting.

Robert, is your friend's also a four grommeter?

The eagle on my 4 grommet side cap is the same as the one on this "Clemens Wagner made Heer tropical overseas cap for an EM motorcycle/reconnaissance battalion" (which as side note was an incredibly good value buy for whoever purchased it);

https://virtualgrenadier.com/sale_item.php?iid=5133

Is this the same eagle on the CW billed M40 ? Made by the same Bevo manufacturer but from different batches of production, from different Jacquard machines ?

They both have the same distinctive colour tone to the cloth and thread,

Chris

Last edited by 90th Light; 12-07-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:34 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGD51 View Post
No, he has a sidecap not a visor.....post # 72. Its grommets and mrz ‘42 stamp is like the Davis cap. He’ll be forwarding his pix soon i think.

Robt.
Sorry, actually #73.

Robt.
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requested photos
Old 12-07-2018, 08:27 PM   #88
Tim O'Keefe
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Here is the CW sidecap Robert mentions.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LenCW42.JPG (108.5 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg LenCW42b.JPG (149.6 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg LenCW42c.JPG (138.3 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg LenCW42g.JPG (129.9 KB, 65 views)
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:33 PM   #89
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No individual points of this cap cause me concern.
The fact that it is made by CW? No, that doesn't worry me at all either.
Knowing who owns the cap only adds to my certainty in it's originality.
Mark
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:39 PM   #90
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The owner of the PzGr sidecap mentions...

"The grommets are non-magnetic. They do look similar IMO but are painted. Hard to argue with Davis’ field cap but for what appears to be unissued from the same maker is strange to me. The drill on my cap (liner too) appears to be a finer weave. Coppery rosette also. Caps could have been made in different CW locations at this time. If you look at the construction in detail, stitching, etc...my cap appears to be different...again maybe just different CW plants? Tough one. Soutache appears a bit wider."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LenCW42h.JPG (114.7 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg LenCW42d.JPG (124.5 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg LenCW42f.JPG (165.3 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg LenCW42e.JPG (142.4 KB, 71 views)
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