wehrmacht awards

Sniper
Old 09-14-2015, 09:08 AM   #1
Patrick W
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Just picked up this fine IMO original patch and it is only the second one I have had with field grey backing in 15 years in this hobby.

I know this type has been discussed to the high heavens and the light grey backed ones are considered more desirable amongst collectors but this version is equally as rare.

Those who have spent some time researching the sniper patch I am sure will be pleased to see this, so hope you like it

best

Patrick
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Best regards, Patrick

"Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel
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Old 09-25-2015, 07:41 PM   #2
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Nice original badge, well done on a very rare find.
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Old 09-27-2015, 06:31 PM   #3
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
I know this type has been discussed to the high heavens...
Yep, same type discussed here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...04#post6829004

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---Norm
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Old 09-27-2015, 07:16 PM   #4
Patrick W
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Same type Norm as you point out, interestingly this same badge was shown on WAF several months ago found in a US collection. I have been very active in this hobby the last decade and a half and have owned some of the rarest decorations of the 3rd Reich, in that time I got exactly 3 sniper badges all the lowest grade, 2 like this and one with light grey backing. These are rare as hell in both forms.
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"Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel
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Old 09-27-2015, 09:32 PM   #5
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
These are rare as hell in both forms.
Well, certainly they've been posted here on WAF over the years. And unfortunately, rarity doesn't bring us closer to the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
...and the light grey backed ones are considered more desirable amongst collectors but this version is equally as rare.
I don't think either type can be considered more desirable than the other since the discrediting of the at least partially put-together Weissinger grouping (with the grey background type).

While it's true there is no proof that either type are fakes, nor has there in all these years been any proof they are wartime (although they may be). They're all just nice unworn UV light-negative cloth patches.

At the current level of evidence, acceptance of these cloth patches as high-priced originals has to be one of the biggest leaps of faith in the hobby. At best, it's speculative based on the hope that more verifiable evidence will appear sometime in the 21st century.

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 09-27-2015, 09:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
Well, certainly they've been posted here on WAF over the years. And unfortunately, rarity doesn't bring us closer to the truth.



I don't think either type can be considered more desirable than the other since the discrediting of the at least partially put-together Weissinger grouping (with the grey background type).

While it's true there is no proof that either type are fakes, nor has there in all these years been any proof they are wartime (although they may be). They're all just nice unworn UV light-negative cloth patches.

At the current level of evidence, acceptance of these cloth patches as high-priced originals has to be one of the biggest leaps of faith in the hobby. At best, it's speculative based on the hope that more verifiable evidence will appear sometime in the 21st century.

Best regards,
---Norm

Totally agree with you Norm, although I have one of these myself.

Regards,
Tom
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:00 PM   #7
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Nice one Patrick . Interesting how your patch has a guide thread on the back between 12:00 and 2:00, and also between 6:00 and seven on the lower left.....seems they just didn't get to the guide....but interesting regarding construction for stitching.

Congratulations on a good find....now what would the going rate be for one of this accepted original style. ? Since they are so few in number, I would think there yet is no standard , or have dealers set a price already ....? Also how many known examples are so far found across the collector community?
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
... interestingly this same badge was shown on WAF several months ago found in a US collection.
Ah, I see it was that patch.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=794805

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---Norm
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Old 09-28-2015, 01:03 PM   #9
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All of the items from that estate except for a few things I kept went to a Tallahassee auction house, so I assume this one went there as well.
Dale
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:33 PM   #10
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juoneen View Post
Also how many known examples are so far found across the collector community?
Hi juoneen,

It depends on which variant you're talking about. in the absence of any proof, there is no one "accepted original" type, only "favoured" types based upon a fairly arbitrary group dynamic. At least we can report the WAF statistics on these.

Over the last 11 years of WAF postings since 2004 (not including threads which lost their images) there are have emerged two sub-types of patch with a grey background that have sometimes been granted favour by some members (although not with universal acceptance). Only the second of these two types appears also on a feldgrau (green) background.

First I'll summarize these variants and then give the post frequencies for each. First, here are the two subtypes of patch on the grey background:

Type 1 - slightly more vertically elongated; visible space between the bottom oak stem and the bottom of the green border; prominent white bobbin thread on the reverse with multiple connecting strands radiating from the top of the eagle's head; the ends of the silver and gold braid are sewn down with the same grey thread (for silver) or green thread (for gold) that ties the braid on to the patch.

Type 2 - slightly less elongated; bottom oak stem touches the bottom of the green border; non-prominent bobbin thread on the reverse without the connecting strands seen on the Type 1; the ends of the silver and gold braid are tied together with silver and gold thread respectively

Both types have been offered at times by both Weitze and Niemann as "originals" without any convincing evidence ever being presented for their authenticity.

More to follow.
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:45 PM   #11
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Next, the Type 2 on the Feldgrau backing. These have the same proportions and almost identical stitch structure as the Type 2 on the grey background in the previous post, but you'll notice the absence of the prominent horizontal white bobbin thread strand that is seen on the grey background version. The binding of the ends of the silver and gold cord is similar to the Type 2-grey version.
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:54 PM   #12
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Finally, there's the odd "Grade 0" version of the Type 2. This has an identical stitch pattern to the Type 2 but is on a coarser Feldgrau backing and lacks the green oval border seen on Grades 1 to 3. The green border has not been cut off -- it's never been there in the first place. Sometimes these were described as "cut off" or "unfinished" or simply fake and Staegemeir has offered this type as well.
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Old 09-28-2015, 03:04 PM   #13
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juoneen View Post
Also how many known examples are so far found across the collector community?
So to answer juoneen's question here are the WAF stats on the numbers posted for the various types in the last 11 years:

Type 1 (grey background)
Grade 1: 1 posted
Grade 2: 3 posted
Grade 3: 4 posted
Total: 8

Type 2 (grey background)
Grade 1: 7 posted
Grade 2: 6 posted
Grade 3: 4 posted
Total: 17

Type 2 (Feldgrau background)
"Grade 0": 3 posted
Grade 1: 11 posted
Grade 2: 6 posted
Grade 3: 2 posted
Total: 22

As far as "rarity" goes, over the same time period there have been quite a few postings of versions deemed obvious fakes -- all of which were less common than any of the above.

Best regards,
---Norm

Last edited by Norm F; 09-28-2015 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 09-28-2015, 04:17 PM   #14
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Here are a couple of weird versions of the "Type 2" that further link the grey-back and the Feldgrau types. One is a grey-backed version with unusual heavy grey bobbin thread that obscures the green of the oval border on the reverse. The second is a Feldgrau-backed version with a similar unusual heavy white bobbin thread again obscuring the green of the oval border. You can see on both the same type of binding of the ends of the silver braid.

Despite the different backing, these seem to have been made by the same workshop, and quite frankly it's hard to see why any of these should be considered expensive wartime artifacts without any good evidence.

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:14 PM   #15
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Nice analysis Norm. I must say that while I feel very confident with the gray backed ones, the Feldgrau ones still have me flip-flopping around. The only piece of cloth that has ever had me do that.
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