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Old 11-05-2012, 04:26 AM   #16
jan r
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In mounted units there were the mounted soldiers "in the saddle" and the non mounted soldiers (not in the saddle) .
These last ones could be for example the gunners in a horse drawn artillery unit that were walking allongside the guns or sitting on the limber, the conductors of the wagons etc...
The 8 holes straps were originaly given out (one for each soldier) to these "non mounted personel in mounted units" to use for wearing the Zeltbahn, Mantel and Decke (in any possible combination) in bandoleer fashion over the shoulder, being part of their "light marching or assault order". During the war with the introduction of the Artillery rucksack and other types of rucksacks this then already obsolete method was rarely used anymore.
In practice these straps were of course more used for whatever other use a soldier in the field could find for.
With the large numbers of other units that were fully or partial horse drawn in Infantry divisions; Engineers, Medical, Signals, Supply, is the reason why these straps are so common found.

Here a standard blanket (with the red and blue stripes) is inside the Zeltbahn with a 1935 dated 8 hole strap.



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Old 11-05-2012, 05:06 AM   #17
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Top strap is a 8 hole 1935 dated, under this is the Tornister or Artillery rucksack strap for non mounted personell in mounted units, in this case 17 holes and dated 1938 with a 5 K.R. unit marking.
The reasons that these last pack straps were simpeler made then the Infantry versions are that the "quick release" on Infantry straps was used in case a Infantry man needed to taken of his greatcoat / blanket of his Tornister 39 to fix it on his assault pack or his greatcoat / blanket had to taken of his Tornister 34 or 39 to be stored in the platoon wagon.
Having no assault packs there was no need for this additional "quick release" strap for the packstraps in mounted units, also there was no need to store the greatcoat / blanket rolls seperate because the packs were most of the time tranported in the wagons or hanging outside the limbers.

The two lower straps are the ones intended for the Reitergepäck 34 or model 40 (n.A.) Three of these were issued to each rider. 12 or 11 holes are found in the same length of straps. Both are unmarked and always in brown color.
Also no need for a "quick release" here because the Zeltbahn or greatcoat needs to be taken of from the rear of the saddle anyway were these are fixed with special purpose double buckle staps.









Reitergepäck 34 fitted in assault pack mode using these straps to fix the Zeltbahn,




Jan

Last edited by jan r; 11-05-2012 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:23 AM   #18
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Well I have this thread pinned already Gentlemen!
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This aint a Forum,its kind of University to me.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:22 AM   #19
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Superb insight and pics, jan r.
Good to see practical examples and info, rather than just a reference to an army manual. Cavalry strap info noted.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:37 PM   #20
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Some original photos of the bandoleer style in use,

Members of one of the motorized Panzerabwehr-Züge from the 1.Kavallerie-Brigade in 1939, these were also part of the "non mounted personell in a mouted unit"
Both gunners wear their Zeltbahn over the shoulder, the one on the left has also a Zuggurten on. No Kochgeschirr on the Brotbeutel, these were then carried inside the Tornister 34.




Training shoot by soldiers in Kavallerie Regiment Mitte in 1943, supply columm, both of the left wear the Zeltbahn over the shoulder. The one kneeling is a Wachtmeister wearing spurs, sometimes horse mounted soldiers carried their Zeltbahn also in this manner instead of the Packtasche.



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Old 11-07-2012, 01:45 PM   #21
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Dear Jan, at first my big thanks for what you wrote.
I not respond immediately because I have taken a few time to read well you've written, and now I have to ask you a few questions about it.


The topic is really close to my heart, so I would like very much tofurther deepen it, and there are points that I would like to clarify.

If I understand well, you say that the support straps with 8 holes is a prerogative of the Cavalry, or rather say that this strap comes with saddle bagsand also used for other purposes that you have shown, what I wonder, and I ask you, do you have any official information about it or is "just" your opinion/experience?
Are there/do you know if exist contemporary texts dealing specifically about the teme of this topic and defining such Cavalry belt?

I ask this because on several occasions, I happened to see that with these 8 holes straps were fixed the large messkit over the backpacks M07/13, already from 1GM. I assume therefore that these straps are a legacy of 1GM but used, with the same purpose, before in the Reichswehr and at last in the Wehrmacht


At the conclusion of my reasoning, I post (taken from Angolia) some images about the straps where, in a bold note, specify that the strap used for messkit (when worn on the bread bag) were similar to the type were used by unmounted troops of mounted units but with difference of length (24 inches) which equates to 60.96 centimeters(approx. 71 cm.).
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:46 PM   #22
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gffgs
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:11 PM   #23
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Hi Mulon, Yes it is true that the 8 hole strap dates already from before world war one, and was then a typical infantry item. When the cavalry was used more in dismounted actions over a longer period of time during the great war this strap was also issued to them. The reason was that the saddlebags at that time were not suitable to use has assault packs, so a bandoleer was improvised, with the Kochgeschirr hanging with the handle at the lower tip. After the first world war, with the modified saddlebags and later the new model 34 the bandoleer was not really needed any more, this was then only used by the non mounted parts of these mounted units, until more practical rucksacks were given out to them.
However this strap was still possible given out during the second war to this units, the latest date I have on one is 1944. I have in one of my books, somewere in the text, one line over this strap being part of the equipment, I am trying to find it back, it is possible that it is in one of the Richter books.
That line of text was then the reason I started including this straps in my mounted equipment collection.


I think that the official Kochgeschirr strap from 1939 on is the one that is used on the A-frame. And when this strap was not given out seperate when no A-frame was used, the troops used whatever strap that fitted when they had the Kochgeschirr on the Brotbeutel.
The canvas strap around the Kochgeschirr on the Brotbeutel, showed in Angolia looks to short to be practical, but it will certainly work has a improvisation.


Here is a official drawing were the special packstraps ( i ) for the Reitergepäck from the Packtaschen 34 are shown, these straps were also used with the Packtaschen 40 (n.A.)


Jan

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:26 PM   #24
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I just measured some of my A-frame Kochgeschirr straps, and these are all around 70 cm long, and besides the extra loops look similar to the straps for non mounted personel in mounted units, so I think that Angolia is talking about these straps, but did not had examples of these at hand to show in this book ?

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:40 PM   #25
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When the Kochgeschirr strap is fitted in this way it cannot fall of and get lost when the Kochgeschirr is removed,






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Old 11-11-2012, 05:09 AM   #26
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Ciao dear jan and thsnk for your help, too much appreciated.

Starting from what you wrote here, my question is if you can post these straps 70cm long, I'm really interested to see them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jan r View Post
I just measured some of my A-frame Kochgeschirr straps, and these are all around 70 cm long, and besides the extra loops look similar to the straps for non mounted personel in mounted units, so I think that Angolia is talking about these straps, but did not had examples of these at hand to show in this book ?

Jan


But I can't agree with you about the 8 hole ones.

Your reasoning, related to non mounted of mounted personel, it's not wrong in my opinion .... but, in fact, is related only to thet. If this strap was used by infantry of the IWW, with the precise purpose to fix the messkit, that logic just as was done in the early years of the IIWW. Then, from 1939, came to the a-frame ones, and here we all agree, but I'm staying pretty sure that to 8 holes is the first strap for messkit. Then the soldiers have used a little bit of everything is also true, but that's another story. It would be interesting to hear other opinions from lovers of the equipment.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:00 AM   #27
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These are just the normal Kochgeschirr riemen that can be used with the A-Rahmen, Reitergepäck 40 (n.A.) or on the Brotbeutel.
For me these are the mess kit straps that Angolia writes over, but did not had for showing in the book. Besides being longer and having extra loops these look indeed similar like the ones for non mounted troops in mounted units.
These Kochgeschirr riemen are also often mentioned seperate in the personal euipment list in the Soldbuch.
Length here is between 68 and 70 cm .




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Old 05-27-2013, 12:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jan r View Post
I have in one of my books, somewere in the text, one line over this strap being part of the equipment, I am trying to find it back, it is possible that it is in one of the Richter books.
That line of text was then the reason I started including this straps in my mounted equipment collection.
Ciao dear Jan, here I'm again regarding this important debate (of course for me).
I read, re-read and re-read many times what you wrote ... usually I hardly changing idea, and I hope you was able to find the text subject of "my quote".
I'm asking it because I forgot to say that I have in my collection a nice 8 holes straps LBAS marked. This detail add confusion to confusion on my mind.....please find the text and post it, please.
BTW, in this moment I'm remain on my idea, "standard" 8 holes strap was issued for the mess kit.
Thanks, Giancarlo.
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:06 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MULON View Post
Ciao dear Jan, here I'm again regarding this important debate (of course for me).

......BTW, in this moment I'm remain on my idea, "standard" 8 holes strap was issued for the mess kit.
Thanks, Giancarlo.
Great discussion. To add more confusion - what then of the ten hole straps? Are they all post war? Here is an example I've had for quite a while. A 60cm, 10 hole, smooth side out late-war strap, marked "fkv 44" (the "v" is faint). The "44" is re-stamped over a faint "43". Hard to believe this one's a fake, but I guess you never know.

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Old 05-30-2013, 12:45 PM   #30
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Ciao Mike, I have one like this but light brown. As soon I'll post in this 3d a selection of my straps that we talking about here.
Ciao, Giancarlo.
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