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1957 Medals, Orders and Decorations Third Reich Awards redesigned in 1957 without National Socialist Emblems, including Post-war and Veteran-related items.

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Old 12-06-2019, 01:48 PM   #16
bytown
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Does the 835 marked cross come in both Matte and Glossy paint finish?

Wayne
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:47 PM   #17
Nigel N
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Wayne....
Out of all the examples I have seen, all the "835"'s apart from one had the matt finish!!!
-Nigel
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:18 PM   #18
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Nigel, maybe it would be interesting to make a thread for these KC's and see if there can be a timeline from the earliest and latest KC. Especially the earliest would be interesting. I only have 1 left to make good pictures about the frame and core. But there are most likely many collectors here that have them.
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel N View Post
It is true that i have seen less "800"'s than "835"s....
Thanks Nigel. Yes, same here. Strange as St&L sure didn't seem to have a problem with demand. Maybe their production period is a lot shorter than we think?
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Old 12-07-2019, 05:18 AM   #20
Nigel N
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangstje View Post
Thanks Nigel. Yes, same here. Strange as St&L sure didn't seem to have a problem with demand. Maybe their production period is a lot shorter than we think?
Or maybe they switched to "800" silver later??? Meaning less "800"'s were produced before they finished making 57ers???
It does seem that the "800" is actually rarer than the "835"....probably still not as desirable though!!!!
There are some clues as to when Deumer ceased 57 production.....
A number of 57ers suddenly appeared, that were either hybrids of S&L and Deumer..... or Deumer pieces finished in an S&L style....
These include S&L EK's with Deumer frames, Deumer pinbacks, with S&L catches/hinges or pins, Deumer pieces with S&L type finishes (gold,silver,bronze, black paint etc.) And Deumer pieces assembled in an S&L style (stood up hinges instead of layed down hinges etc.
All these pieces point to S&L buying up and re-using Deumers remaining stock of decorations and parts, which is probably known anyway, but the S&L pieces at the time are all of the thick catch/ open hingeblock type, which we know S&L switched to in around 1967/8.....
So while its possible that Deumer finished earlier, and S&L either didn't buy their stock, or didn't use their stock for a few years, I think its more likely, they bought it and used it pretty much straight away??
Giving a date of around 67/8 for Deumer finishing 57 production??
Another clue could be the arrival of Assmann on the 57 scene, again I would date their entry into the market at around 67/8......
Did Assmann see an opportunity with Deumer off the scene..or was the timing just a coincidence????!!!!!
-Nigel
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My 835 found on E-Bay
Old 12-07-2019, 06:37 PM   #21
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Default My 835 found on E-Bay

Here is my 835 Schickle/Deumer. thanks for clarifying the name Nigel. You should write a darn book. This was being sold as an S&L. I'm not quite certain the Ribbon loop is original to this type cross. Someone please let me know if you can. Pretty sure the case is a repro as well.


Well it seems I STILL can't upload photos........
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Any early model 1957 badges. Reasonable Top Dollar paid.

Last edited by Brien; 12-07-2019 at 07:07 PM. Reason: NOtification
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835 Pic
Old 12-10-2019, 09:10 PM   #22
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835
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Needed!! One 800 marked 1957 Otto Schickle RK and one PRISTINE/MINT early 800 marked B Model first pattern RK.


Any early model 1957 badges. Reasonable Top Dollar paid.
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Old 12-12-2019, 06:48 AM   #23
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I do not have one to show, but there are also '835' bottom marked swastika core "Schickle" RK's which look very nice. Many, many years ago I saw one at a MAX show, but was told by an experienced friend that it was "not one you want" and it was suggested that they originated in the UK in the 60's. I have no way of knowing if that is correct, but it was most assuredly a "Schickle" frame and core. The core paint was a nice low-gloss black.

Just something to throw into the mix.
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Old 12-12-2019, 08:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy View Post
I do not have one to show, but there are also '835' bottom marked swastika core "Schickle" RK's which look very nice. Many, many years ago I saw one at a MAX show, but was told by an experienced friend that it was "not one you want" and it was suggested that they originated in the UK in the 60's. I have no way of knowing if that is correct, but it was most assuredly a "Schickle" frame and core. The core paint was a nice low-gloss black.

Just something to throw into the mix.
It would be interesting to know, what made Deumer mark the frames on the bottom part of the frame. For some reason, S&L did the same thing in the “earlier” part of their postwar production period. Instead of “835” they were marked “800”.
These bottom 800 marked crosses are much scarcer than the regular S&L crosses. They were made with a swastika core as well as a 1957 core. Timeline wise both could be made a match.
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:10 AM   #25
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Super nice examples shown!!

I was lucky to be able to acquire the example which was photographed for usage as the 1957 Deumer "Schickle" example in Dietrich Maerz's book "The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross" on Page 397. I am not sure who owned the cross at the time the book was published in 2007. I purchased this example from a collector in New York who had not owned the RK during that time period. No idea if this makes the cross more "desirable", but it is pretty cool, no matter.

I wonder if there are any repeats in your database Nigel as the crosses move from one owner to the next?

Best,

Jeff
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:11 AM   #26
Nigel N
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I believe S&L, Deumer and Deschler all produced postwar pieces with Swastika!!!
-Nigel
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel N View Post
I believe S&L, Deumer and Deschler all produced postwar pieces with Swastika!!!
-Nigel
That is also my opinion. These companies supplied their customers with the pieces they wanted. No matter if this was unofficial and more of a “under the table” thing.

Early C-frame crosses using repainted wartime swastika Schickle cores, swastika APB’s with typical 1957er Deumer Hardware, etc. the pieces speak a language of their own. It’s certainly not a flood of items but still they can be found.
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Old 12-12-2019, 01:22 PM   #28
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So far every 800 marked and unmarked 57 schickle that i have seen has the WWII type ribbon loop which may or not be wartime made . ive only seen one 57 835 cross with the wartime type loop.all others i noticed have IMO the later non wartime type like the one above on Briens cross which leads me to think the 835 may be the later of the three types produced.also has anyone had a chance to compare the swastica type 835 core to a S&L core ?
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Old 12-12-2019, 01:34 PM   #29
Nigel N
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony james View Post
So far every 800 marked and unmarked 57 schickle that i have seen has the WWII type ribbon loop which may or not be wartime made . ive only seen one 57 835 cross with the wartime type loop.all others i noticed have IMO the later non wartime type like the one above on Briens cross which leads me to think the 835 may be the later of the three types produced.also has anyone had a chance to compare the swastica type 835 core to a S&L core ?
The problem with loops is they are removable and interchangeable....some vets re-used their wartime loop ( and sometimes ribbon) on their 57 cross!!
Its better to look at the core paint......
Matt = early
Glossy = later
See which type of core paint is on the majority of "835" crosses!!!
-Nigel
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Old 12-12-2019, 06:25 PM   #30
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Sideways topic move for a moment. Alex, very interesting that the early C frames used wartime swaz frames, under the table. Where did the B frame swaz cores come from?
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