wehrmacht awards

Old 08-21-2017, 02:18 PM   #31
FrenchVolunteer
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Hi,

SteveT is not the only one to have worked on the GL, if you use your brain and get pictures and documents you can get similar results.
More infos surfaced since then.

I don't know what the regulations on GL (no one knows for sure), but imo Wolfrum should not have been awarded the GL.
He was walking with a limp... Gosh. Where is the "proficiency" here ? He was so good that he was in training schools, like many other heavily wounded officers.
His case is a very specific exception.
And you try to use that to prove that an SS-Stubaf of the SD in the Warthegau could get the badge too ?

The infos we have of the dozen of Prüfungsbücher show that it was hard to get the badge, especially the silver one. Hard because of excellent results asked in each sport competition.

You can't use an exception to make a generality, this is an insult to critical thinking (despite unfortunately it is done very often on the WAF).

We cannot make assumptions when

- no one has any single proof of "who butchered the back of the GL" i can give you hundred of examples of GI doing the same,

- the GL is not a crappy Luftwaffe speciality badge given to dozen of thousands, this is one of the rarest badges of the German army, this is rarer that a 1st BO type !

- to date, no archives for the GL exist about age and grade, but most of the names we have are of soldiers from Norway, The Netherlands or France that are of young enlisted members who got their GL during their basic physical training,

- if "Bahr" data are in the open, unless i'm blind there is nothing about his GL. I advise you to investigate on that.
And even if this SS-Stubaf Bahr got the GL, there is no proof that the eMedals GL is his own,

- the regulations of where to pass the sport competitions are mainly unknown, but we know that the GL was awarded in SS training schools like Avegoor, Sennheim, Prague and Kongsvinger. Again, it should imply that someone from the Warthegau had to ask to pass the competitions somewhere in the area.

To conclude, unless you are a crippled man like Wolfrum, here is what is taken from facts :
- competitions happened in SS basic training schools
- for young enlisted volunteers
- to pass the competitions was very hard
- only 1300 soldiers got the award badge (when hundred of thousand enlisted at the same time in the Waffen-SS)

All that doesn't match any logical explaination of SS-Stubaf Bahr getting the GL.

See You

Vince

Last edited by FrenchVolunteer; 08-21-2017 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 08-21-2017, 03:42 PM   #32
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Member Mikedenmark has posted an excellent film showing the GL being awarded to Danish volunteers. here http://www.forsvaret.tv/#!/video/85CF2445 .

Regards Steve.
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Old 08-21-2017, 04:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchVolunteer View Post

It is very unlikely (if not ridiculous) to think that a 35-years old SD SS-Sturmbannfüher from the Warthegau will pass the GL physical tests, even for the bronze badge...
You needed to be very a good athlete, this is not surprising that only less than probably 1300 soldiers were awarded. 1300 on hundred of thousand who were enlisted in the Waffen-SS between 1943 and 1945.

A SS awarded with the badge would not do a sloppy job like that to "mark" his award (even more an SS-Stubaf !).
More like the work of someone who "liberated" it.


Fully agree, mon ami!
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Old 08-21-2017, 05:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchVolunteer View Post
Hi,



it is very unlikely (if not ridiculous) to think that a 35-years old SD SS-Sturmbannfüher from the Warthegau will pass the GL physical tests, even for the bronze badge...
Note to mention
See You

Vince
From the looks of some of the awardees i would say some were right up there in the 35 year old range.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:29 PM   #35
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Stan,
I'm no expert, but someone who is mentioned you had one of these...
It was on both of our "holy grail of all TR badges" list we were discussing recently, and when I asked about them, he mentioned you had one.
thanks for sharing!

J
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:44 PM   #36
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As to specifications for award,
could it be possible that the award of this badge was political to some degree - as the award of the honor ring and etc. were -? That is, at the whim of those in power?
I know the standards had to be met. But there were always exceptions.

That would explain a 35 year old getting it, lame or not.

I'm no expert on the badge - but I know that the award of the honor ring and other items had largely to do, sometimes, with the whim and pleasure of Himmler.

Not saying that is the case with this award. Just mentioning the fact that it had a lot to do with other awards of the SS.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:20 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runic View Post
Stan,
I'm no expert, but someone who is mentioned you had one of these...
It was on both of our "holy grail of all TR badges" list we were discussing recently, and when I asked about them, he mentioned you had one.
thanks for sharing!

J
Hi,

Yes, I do have the bronze and silver versions.

The bronze version is shown earlier in this thread and the silver is shown on another thread.

Stan
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:55 PM   #38
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Stan,
Thanks for posting, just an incredible original here. Your silver is great as well.

As for the requirements for the award, thanks to my expert friend, I know now that they do exist and are extremely specific. So I am torn over whether these awards could have been honorary, knowing the extremely detailed requirements for the badge. 400 meter sprint, long jump, grenade throw, etc., etc., and it's far more detailed than that. So I am undecided.
If anyone wants to know the most deatailed info on the badge, where and to whom it was awarded, the booklet that went with it and all its topics, let me know and I'll put you on to the right author.
Again thanks to Stan and everyone who posted on this fascinating subject.

R
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:21 PM   #39
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Hi,

Chris Ailby give on his website the various tests the SS volunteers had to pass.
It should be not a surprise that the sport tests happened in basic SS training camps, the ones that had to "check" that volunteers were physically ok to become SS members.
We are lacking data on the badge, but it seemed that only the best athletes amongst the mass of volunteers were able to compete and only a small fraction got the chance to get the badge.
The individual sport tests the volunteer had to pass alone were the more difficult one, the ones in team were probably easier.

The badge was really given to only really physically able guys, even if the last "ideological test" was probably here only to give a political taste to the badge.

On the around 2500 French volunteers who were sent to the SS-Ausbildungslager Sennheim, less than 5 are known to have successed, and none of them are famous, NCO or officers.
And we are not speaking here of the old, sick and demoralized guys who had to enlist in the "Charlemagne" in fall 1944.

SS training camps had sport tests during each week-end (at least in Sennheim it was the case), so i suspect that special specific sport tests were done for the Germanische Leistungsrune.
But the tests were not a joke, for example volunteers had to be sent to Mulhouse by train to pass the swimming test.

See You

Vince
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Old 09-23-2017, 07:14 AM   #40
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More great points, Vince.

Which makes me agree even more now that this could not have been an honorary award, but an extremely tough physical challenge.

So, what I thought at first, that there was a possibility that a lame man could get it just for being held in high regard or living up to the ideological aspect of the requirements, now seems very unlikely to me as well.

Thanks for the great info everyone. Now if I could only own a real one!

Stan, congrats again on having both versions!

John
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Old 09-23-2017, 06:57 PM   #41
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Hi guys,
this had nothing to do with who was awarded the GL, but it is very interesting in regards to Waffen SS officer procurement methods, and their treatment of the disabled, and sports. It doesn't change my mind, but I thought most of you might like this info. It is an incredible testament to how the Germans, and the Waffen SS in particular, treated their disabled vets - they used them to the maximum, and used them to the full in administrative duties, and drilled them to the utmost in sports! Our armed services could take a cue from this ideology - in my opinion.

Document MS # DS -178

Officer Procurement in the Waffen SS
(Reception, Processing and Training)
Werner Doerffler-Shuband
GeneralMajor Der Waffen SS

(Written for Department of the Army,
Chief of Military History,
Washington DC)


....quote begins at -

Section XII

"Already at an early time special courses were conducted for officer candidates who had been wounded or who had incurred service-connected disabilities which incapacitated them for further line duty. By the end of the war the eighth consecutive course for this personnel was already in progress. The course stressed military and administrative knowledge which prepared the disabled candidates for administrative and related positions where fitness for field duty was not required. As a result, officers in administrative positions who were fit for general service were made available for combat duty.
It is important to mention that this training had such a sound psychological effect on the disabled candidates that it resulted in exceptional performance on their part. This was true not only of the administrative work, but essentially also for the field of sports. The physical exercises for the men were conducted by outstanding instructors who were specialists in teaching sports to the disabled."

Remember, this was written by an expert in the SS about officer procurement. Section XIII of this document goes into the foreign volunteer recruitment.
I'm sure if I keep researching, I will come up with more interesting things for all of us.....

John
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