wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Ken Jasper International Militaria Forums > Imperial Militaria Forum

Imperial Militaria Forum The discussion and study of Imperial German awards and of their Central Powers Allies from the First World War

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 08-16-2019, 04:16 AM   #16
Miro O
Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,409
Default

So, Don, now you can choose anything you want. What more can you wish for?

Overall, I wonder if you would prefer a later piece with the original parts, or an awarded piece with (likely) later reblackening and (probably) a needle replaced.

Since I have no time and desire for quarrels and I do not intend to burn my laboriously built archive of reference photographs (and I miss the Association membership to post them here) I will try to be short and constructive:

This discussion is an example of one of the things I mentioned in a private message to you. Only the well-known and typical award pieces with a mark, a thin round needle, a cylindrical hinge, and a matte finish reach the top price.

As soon as something different appears, the price falls almost half, regardless of debates how later that cross is.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019, 07:42 AM   #17
Green
Association Member
 
Green's Avatar
 
Green is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,062
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miro O View Post
So, Don, now you can choose anything you want. What more can you wish for?

Overall, I wonder if you would prefer a later piece with the original parts, or an awarded piece with (likely) later reblackening and (probably) a needle replaced.

Since I have no time and desire for quarrels and I do not intend to burn my laboriously built archive of reference photographs (and I miss the Association membership to post them here) I will try to be short and constructive:

This discussion is an example of one of the things I mentioned in a private message to you. Only the well-known and typical award pieces with a mark, a thin round needle, a cylindrical hinge, and a matte finish reach the top price.

As soon as something different appears, the price falls almost half, regardless of debates how later that cross is.
You know how to adjust everything perfectly to your liking...... well done
__________________
https://ironcross-history.nl/

A medal for bravery without class distinction. Anyone, a soldier, civilian or a King, was eligible for the First and Second Class........the IRON CROSS!
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019, 07:49 AM   #18
Don D.
Moderator
 
Don D.'s Avatar
 
Don D. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walting my way thru pseudo-expert land
Posts: 26,204
Default

Thanks for the discussion guys. We live and learn. Whatever it eventually goes for will be its value until it moves again. I've enjoyed it for years and I'm sure a new owner will do the same.
__________________
pseudo-expert
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019, 11:31 PM   #19
AlikN
Association Member
 
AlikN's Avatar
 
AlikN is offline
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 2,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miro O View Post
……. Only the well-known and typical award pieces with a mark, a thin round needle, a cylindrical hinge, and a matte finish ......

I am not sure what do you mean by well-known and typical, maybe correct way to say would be an early award pieces.

Or you are saying that Wagner made about 1300+ crosses with thin round needle and a cylindrical hinge and a matte finish - which were used for awards only, and all the rest of the crosses out there are private purchase ?
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019, 06:55 AM   #20
Miro O
Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlikN View Post
I am not sure what do you mean by well-known and typical, maybe correct way to say would be an early award pieces.

Or you are saying that Wagner made about 1300+ crosses with thin round needle and a cylindrical hinge and a matte finish - which were used for awards only, and all the rest of the crosses out there are private purchase ?
Yes, they are early award pieces, which naturally makes them well known and typical for that era. What is incorrect with that?

I think it should be enough to stress for the second time, that my point was pricing - I said only these reach top price. I didnīt say the rest are private purchases (quoting myself: "as soon as something different appears...").


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlikN View Post
Or you are saying that Wagner made about 1300+ crosses with thin round needle and a cylindrical hinge and a matte finish - which were used for awards only...
I donīt know the exact number of how many of these were made like this (I wish I knew). I only know that on one hand, cylindrical hinge and thin round pin made it from the 1813 era to 1870s without any problem, and on the other hand, Klein Oberstein needed only two hinge types and one needle to make tens of thousands of EK1s 1914, so your stunts with numbers are absolutely irrelevant.

And bearing in mind this statistics together with the experience that there were (at least) two hinge types before this one and three pin types before this one, I consider the thread starter not an awarded piece. But it is only my opinion, nothing else.

I donīt take arguments like pin is ("probably") replaced and core is ("likely") later reblackened, until some arguments for this are presented. I want to see areas pointed out which speak for retouching the core, or tool marks speaking about replacing that pin. I asked Don for detailed pics of the hinge from all sides and I donīt see any traces of it, plus the pin fits to the hinge in Tetris style. Anyway, if the pin "was period replaced", someone should explain me, why it was not period replaced with period pin, but with pin that looks fairly later. Check the catch. It is thicker wire and smaller diameter than early awarded piece. For me it perfectly fits to overally later hardware style. Or was this one also "period replaced"?
It is not fair to make detailed autopsy of my statements, overthinking and misinterpreting them, while you turn blind eye on logical faults and lack of any argumentation in other posts.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019, 07:12 AM   #21
Andy K.
Member
 
Andy K.'s Avatar
 
Andy K. is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlikN View Post
I am not sure what do you mean by well-known and typical, maybe correct way to say would be an early award pieces.

Or you are saying that Wagner made about 1300+ crosses with thin round needle and a cylindrical hinge and a matte finish - which were used for awards only, and all the rest of the crosses out there are private purchase ?

This question is going into the wrong direction. Among experts in Germany it has been accepted for many years that Wagner produced four different versions of EK I 1870 within the official award period until 1873. For one thing there were two different pinning systems: the early one with cylindrical hinge and the round pin and the later one with cylindrical hinge reinforced with a little bar and flat pin. On the other hand there were two different iron cores: the one with the thick heightened crown and the one with the flatter crown in a different style. Both core types were issued with the early needle system.

I only know officially awarded Wagner EK I 1870 in flat design. I have no doubts that this vaulted design EK from Don is an original Wagner EK from the award period.
I assume that the vault was made later privately and by this the iron core got broken.

Andy
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019, 03:00 PM   #22
Don D.
Moderator
 
Don D.'s Avatar
 
Don D. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walting my way thru pseudo-expert land
Posts: 26,204
Default

Hand vaulted or done at the factory? That is the question.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190817_143245.jpg (68.1 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg 20190817_143255.jpg (113.3 KB, 100 views)
File Type: jpg 20190817_143304.jpg (85.5 KB, 101 views)
File Type: jpg 20190817_143313.jpg (96.1 KB, 101 views)
__________________
pseudo-expert
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019, 03:02 PM   #23
Don D.
Moderator
 
Don D.'s Avatar
 
Don D. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walting my way thru pseudo-expert land
Posts: 26,204
Default

more.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190817_143328.jpg (97.7 KB, 101 views)
File Type: jpg 20190817_143334.jpg (106.7 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg 20190817_143342.jpg (128.3 KB, 104 views)
File Type: jpg 20190817_143351.jpg (165.1 KB, 106 views)
__________________
pseudo-expert
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019, 03:03 PM   #24
Miro O
Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy K. View Post
This question is going into the wrong direction. Among experts in Germany it has been accepted for many years that Wagner produced four different versions of EK I 1870 within the official award period until 1873. For one thing there were two different pinning systems: the early one with cylindrical hinge and the round pin and the later one with cylindrical hinge reinforced with a little bar and flat pin. On the other hand there were two different iron cores: the one with the thick heightened crown and the one with the flatter crown in a different style. Both core types were issued with the early needle system.

I only know officially awarded Wagner EK I 1870 in flat design. I have no doubts that this vaulted design EK from Don is an original Wagner EK from the award period.
I assume that the vault was made later privately and by this the iron core got broken.

Andy
That piece is probably hand vaulted. Vault looks uneven and inner corners of the frame are visibly raised off the core.

No one doubts that there were two A core types issued with early award pieces. One is so called Wagner A1 core (which you call the core with thick heightened crown) and the other is common A core (which you call the core with the flatter crown). But your argumentation doesnīt take into account that common A cores were produced in four visibly different variations (visibly for trained eye, of course). This variation, as on thread starter, with thin 0 in date and a slightly more rounded crown is mostly seen on privately purchased EK1s and on late EK2s with glossy finish, which are sometimes even painted (as we know, A cores were produced well into WW1).

Apart from A1 type, my reference folder constantly shows awarded pieces with variation of common A core which is different from the thread starter one, while this one (as on thread starter) appears on two privately purchased crosses. My first EK2 1870 was also of this late variation and it was painted...

Now that hinge thing. Again you are right, the hinge type you are describing, was mentioned also in my second comment of this thread (post No. 7): small barrell supported with a silver plate (you call it cylindrical hinge reinforced with a little bar). But again, I see difference between a hinge made of two pieces of metal soldered together and between solid one-piece hinge with a cylindric part and a support bar part, which indicates later (so called WW1) type. I asked Don for details of the hinge from all sides, he can post them here as well, to me it looks like solid onepiecer. When I compare it with the hinges on awarded crosses (I have them two of this kind in my ref. folder) they show apparent signs of two piece construction - uneven solder between parts, in one case the bar overlaps the width of the cylinder to one side by more than 1 milimeter.

When Don posts those photos of his hinge, please point out the places which signalise that this pin was ever replaced. Thank you.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019, 04:29 PM   #25
Don D.
Moderator
 
Don D.'s Avatar
 
Don D. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walting my way thru pseudo-expert land
Posts: 26,204
Default

pics
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190818_172146.jpg (23.0 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg 20190818_172144.jpg (76.3 KB, 77 views)
__________________
pseudo-expert
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019, 05:55 PM   #26
Don D.
Moderator
 
Don D.'s Avatar
 
Don D. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walting my way thru pseudo-expert land
Posts: 26,204
Default

more pics. It is not easy to get this hinge in focus.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2019-08-18 19.01.41.jpg (33.1 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg 2019-08-18 19.01.01.jpg (25.9 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg 20190818_184342.jpg (33.8 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg 20190818_184350.jpg (27.1 KB, 71 views)
__________________
pseudo-expert
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019, 05:56 PM   #27
Don D.
Moderator
 
Don D.'s Avatar
 
Don D. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walting my way thru pseudo-expert land
Posts: 26,204
Default

and the last.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190818_184358.jpg (60.3 KB, 74 views)
File Type: jpg 20190818_184404.jpg (100.2 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg 20190818_184412.jpg (16.0 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg 20190818_184415.jpg (12.7 KB, 73 views)
__________________
pseudo-expert
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019, 08:47 PM   #28
otter76
Member
 
otter76's Avatar
 
otter76 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South America
Posts: 429
Default

It does not seem to have a replaced hardware
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-19-2019, 01:35 PM   #29
Don D.
Moderator
 
Don D.'s Avatar
 
Don D. is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walting my way thru pseudo-expert land
Posts: 26,204
Default

So what is the prognosis? Original pin/hinge, hand vaulted, time period?
__________________
pseudo-expert
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-19-2019, 03:03 PM   #30
Andy K.
Member
 
Andy K.'s Avatar
 
Andy K. is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 321
Default

The hinge is definitely original. The pin was replaced when the recipient was still alive (the cylinder of the pin has a larger diameter than the two cylinders of the hinge).

From the pictures I cannot see If the EK was delivered by Wagner & Sohn already vaulted or if it was vaulted afterwards by the recipient or a jeweler.

Andy
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com