wehrmacht awards

U Boot badge cloth version
Old 07-22-2019, 10:12 AM   #1
Larbanais
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Default U Boot badge cloth version

Hello,

What do you think about this U Boot badge ?
Fake or original ?
French fantasy fabrication maybe ?
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards

S.


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File Type: jpg 0c3e8610.jpg (193.5 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg b3770b10.jpg (190.7 KB, 114 views)

Last edited by Norm F; 07-23-2019 at 07:29 PM. Reason: uploaded the linked images
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:37 PM   #2
Norm F
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Hi S.

In my opinion, that is likely an artificially aged post-war patch from the same source as this one posted by Hubert almost six years ago:
http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s...21#post6185821

The type of "French-made" bullion U-boat patch that I think has a chance of being wartime is the type seen here:
http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s...d.php?t=883185

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:55 PM   #3
101combatvet
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I believe it is an Italian made period piece.
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Bullion U-boat Badge
Old 07-23-2019, 08:20 PM   #4
Jody
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Thumbs down Bullion U-boat Badge

I have very little faith in these bullion patches. It leaves me with too many doubts. There are too many other verifiable items that I would prefer over this.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:47 PM   #5
Norm F
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Comparisons front and back to the previously posted one from the Polish auction site in 2013. There were two almost identical patches from the auction site at that time.
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File Type: jpg obverse.jpg (237.3 KB, 112 views)
File Type: jpg reverse-detail.jpg (238.5 KB, 108 views)
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:31 PM   #6
Norm F
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It's easy to artificially age copper based alloys in anywhere between 2 and 15 days by soaking in various solutions as seen in this article:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...69433217300818.

And I get the impression the green staining of the thread doesn't look like a natural process.

Best regards,
---Norm
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File Type: jpg 1-s2.0-S0169433217300818-fx1_lrg.jpg (56.9 KB, 111 views)
File Type: jpg 0c3e8610.jpg (193.5 KB, 110 views)

Last edited by Norm F; 07-24-2019 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:27 AM   #7
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Thanks for the reference to copper corrosion. The threads that you are referring to look like copper or a copper alloy and could, corrode under various conditions. Copper happens to be the least resistant to corrosion while copper alloys are less so.


I based my original statement on construction of the badge. I'm very familiar with some of the Paki repros that have flooded the market over the last twenty years, and if this is a reproduction, it does not mirror those examples. This does not mean that it is an original, but it certainly has a reasonable probability of being an original.
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Old 07-24-2019, 12:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I based my original statement on construction of the badge. I'm very familiar with some of the Paki repros that have flooded the market over the last twenty years, and if this is a reproduction, it does not mirror those examples. This does not mean that it is an original, but it certainly has a reasonable probability of being an original.
Hi 101combatvet,

Are you saying that just the patch from the opening post might be original and not the very similarly constructed one in the side-by-side comparison? That second similar one is almost certainly a reproduction as discussed here?

I wasn't suggesting Pakistani origin (I don't know where they're made), and if it is artificially aged I think of that as more of a European practise.

I feel it mimics the French aesthetic more than the Italian aesthetic for bullion insignia (the presumably Italian style seen here).

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
Hi 101combatvet,

Are you saying that just the patch from the opening post might be original and not the very similarly constructed one in the side-by-side comparison? That second similar one is almost certainly a reproduction as discussed here?

I wasn't suggesting Pakistani origin (I don't know where they're made), and if it is artificially aged I think of that as more of a European practise.

I feel it mimics the French aesthetic more than the Italian aesthetic for bullion insignia (the presumably Italian style seen here).

Best regards,
---Norm
I am just referring to the original badge that started this thread. Correct, on the Paki origin and I was using that as the most commonly encountered example. I did some comparisons of their bullion thread and older examples from WW2, many variations to compare. However, there is a pattern that is consistent with British, Italian, Indian, Japanse, and German-made examples, both front, and back must be considered. I am not so familiar with the French-made pieces, but it makes sense that they were made near the German Naval bases. You may be correct on the French connection; I'm basing my assessment on examples in my collection, much of which are Italian made.
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Thanks for the reference to copper corrosion. The threads that you are referring to look like copper or a copper alloy and could, corrode under various conditions.
Hi 101combatvet,

The accent threads I was referring to aren't wire but rather regular fibre spun thread -- I've indicated them with red arrows in the attached image. These shouldn't corrode, but instead appear to have been coloured by whatever solution the obverse was soaked in.

In the linked article they induced accelerated corrosion with hydrochloric acid and/or CuCl2 in the presence of water, either by immersing in solution or exposing to acidic vapours. Alternatively, they also used CuSO4 solution and heat.

I'm not a chemist, but to my mind, the obverse threads shouldn't have that blue-green tinge unless soaked in a fluid that colour. Normal exposure to salty sea air should not turn non-cuprous thread that colour, in my opinion.

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:37 PM   #11
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Can we confirm the thread type which is corroded by the owner? Also, in regards to the rear, I have seen two to three different thread colors used, that might not be discolorization during an aging process.

The only thing that could raise alarms for some is the absence of a Unterlagen in cardboard. It's possible that so few of these badges were produced that it wasn't necessary with this maker.
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Old 07-27-2019, 08:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I'm basing my assessment on examples in my collection, much of which are Italian made.
Thank you for the interesting posts on this example. Could you post some of the Italian made examples in your collection?

John
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