wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Era Militaria > Photos and Paper Items Forum

Photos and Paper Items Forum Awards Document and any photo related to the era.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Another
Old 04-27-2011, 10:32 AM   #31
Jeremy
Member
 
Jeremy is offline
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 766
Default Another

here's another version I have recently seen for sale. The M looks closer to the Hamilton but the double 'L's have that same symmetrical shape as the other's I posted - US$1895's worth. The more you look the more you find! They should be selling for quite a lot less considering they aren't rare
Attached Images
File Type: jpg marseilleagain.jpg (56.4 KB, 724 views)
 

Old 04-27-2011, 01:01 PM   #32
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
here's another version I have recently seen for sale. The M looks closer to the Hamilton but the double 'L's have that same symmetrical shape as the other's I posted - US$1895's worth. The more you look the more you find! They should be selling for quite a lot less considering they aren't rare

This signed Marseille card is only rubbish !! . I will pay for this 15 Euro or 20 US $. Thats all !

The other siged photos from Jeremy are well known fakes on the market !
With postmodern signature by the faker and not by Marseille.

Please look your fake signature with a loupe ! Here you can see the horrible dirty fake of marseille !

Last edited by frankandfrank; 04-27-2011 at 01:39 PM.
 

Other fake from Detlev Niemann !
Old 04-27-2011, 01:03 PM   #33
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default Other fake from Detlev Niemann !

Here you can see other fake from Detlev Nieman !
Attached Images
File Type: jpg marseille fake 1 whwh.jpg (59.3 KB, 715 views)
 

Other fake - from the fake faktory !
Old 04-27-2011, 01:10 PM   #34
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default Other fake - from the fake faktory !

Here you can see the identic other Marseille fake !
Attached Images
File Type: jpg marseille fake 2 wh.jpg (57.1 KB, 726 views)
 

Old 04-27-2011, 01:15 PM   #35
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default

Other dirty fake, but this is also only rubbish !
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Marseille fake 3 wh.jpg (69.9 KB, 733 views)
 

Old 04-27-2011, 01:25 PM   #36
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default

Here you can see - please compare it wit Craig showing - a other fake signed card by Marseille ! Only a other type of postwar fake - but a better one than the first one typus - on the market !
Attached Images
File Type: jpg marseille fake 4.jpg (60.5 KB, 772 views)
 

Old 04-27-2011, 01:37 PM   #37
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default

If you scan in this forum a original Marseille signature you get my agreemet if this is a original or not!


A lot of collectors send me questions about COA from Detlev Niemann for autographs knights cross winners !
I saw this COA ! I was shocked !
A lot of them was make for forgeries !
For example: Marseille, Wittmann, Richthofen and other!

Its the same story about the original knights crosses !
A long time knights crosses would sale as originals.
But when Dietrich März write his very good book, the dealers had a problem , because some of them sold postwar kc.

Last edited by frankandfrank; 04-27-2011 at 01:59 PM.
 

Thanks
Old 04-27-2011, 05:46 PM   #38
Jeremy
Member
 
Jeremy is offline
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 766
Default Thanks

Thanks for your strong views on this Ralf. I was hoping you would post. This selling of Marseille has been going on for years it seems, as there is not enough awareness out in the collecting community about what is genuine or not still - the more fake Marseille's a collector sees the more they believe them to be genuine.

I find it amazing that these sigs continue to be sold by dealers. Of course, we all need to make money but not to the detriment of others - a dealer's ignorance about the genuiness of what they are selling is no excuse in my opininion and they should educate themselves about their field if they are selling stuff. It's a 'buyer beware' world but if dealers are deliberately deceiving people then a crime is being committed.

Thanks Max and Ralf. Valuable opinions for me. I hope you both will comment on the Hartmann's I will post next for consideration, probably under a new thread.

Ralf, can you expand more on your comment about postwar sigs. I didn't understand what you were saying about Marz.

J
 

Old 04-27-2011, 05:59 PM   #39
crfraser
Member
 
crfraser's Avatar
 
crfraser is offline
Join Date: May 2007
Location: America North
Posts: 331
Default

I think purchasers get more comfortable when there is additional handwriting on the document based on a presumption that a forger will generally stick to creating an SP or TLS rather than taking the risk of forging more text. I am a little surprised that these "fake" signatures posted by F&F carry so much writing.

Colin
 

Dates
Old 04-28-2011, 06:37 AM   #40
Jeremy
Member
 
Jeremy is offline
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 766
Default Dates

Here's an interesting thing about WalterB's combat report. It is signed by 'Marseille' on 15.2.42 as Leutnant, but he wasn't promoted to Leutnant until 22.2.42 (see Kurowski; Kitchens and Beaman).

Why would 'he' sign it as a Leutnant or did it take a week to prepare the reports, by which time 'he' was promoted?

Here's two more examples from LegendsAviationGallery

There are about 5 Marseille clippings on this site...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg signatures0029.jpg (26.4 KB, 767 views)
File Type: jpg signatures0106.jpg (43.8 KB, 781 views)
 

Old 04-28-2011, 10:50 AM   #41
Shaun Winkler
Association Member
 
Shaun Winkler's Avatar
 
Shaun Winkler is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1,519
Default

These were field combat reports so the pilot would have typed it out in the evening after his sortie and then would have handed it over to his officer comanding to verify his kill.
Once these were confirmed the officer commanding would have filled out an official document like the one Max posted and would have sent it off to headquarters to confirm and record his kill.

Here is one shown in Robert Tates Book Hans Joachim Marseille





One of mine



As per Mr Tates research it shows that the pilot he shot down on this day and at this precise time was SGT Stone from the 450th Squadron RAF. It was Marseilles 85th kill . Sgt Stone was KIA.



SGT STONES
Commonwealth War Graves Commission

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=2383295

Here are the 2 last photos of Marseille ever taken, they were taken on the 29th of September. I guess this is where these Combat Reports would have been typed out after a mission.



Regards
Shaun

Last edited by Shaun Winkler; 04-28-2011 at 11:07 AM.
 

Old 04-28-2011, 12:36 PM   #42
Dark Angel
New Member
 
Dark Angel is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA-New York
Posts: 28
Default

The book was released 2008.
It is obvious that the same "stuff" was
used in the book as shown in this thread.
 

Old 04-28-2011, 01:59 PM   #43
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Angel View Post
The book was released 2008.
It is obvious that the same "stuff" was
used in the book as shown in this thread.

This is correct. The book of Robert Tate is very questionable !
Not serious for a book writer !


Please look in the historical correct book of german author: Walter Wübbe
- Hauptmann Hans Joachim Marseille"
Ein Jagdfliegerschicksal in Daten, Bildern und Dokumenten


In Walter Wübbe you can see fine original Gefechtsberichte !


In Robert Tate book you can see wich mistake the faker made:

Tate book:

Fake Gefechtsbericht from 17.06.1942 at 12.05 Uhr (oclock) -

In Walter Wübbe book you can see: original:

Original Gefechtsbericht from 17.06.1942 at 12.09 (oclock)

Both had the same content ! (which is not possible)

From Wübbe with original content ! At 12.09 Uhr (oclock)
From Tate with the identic content ! At 12.05 Uhr (oclock)

From Tate book:
The faker makes the mistake and copy nearly the same complet content ! Clearly only the time and km are other one

But the content from Tate - because fake - must be a other one !!!!

5 Minutes differt to shout up a airplane at a different time . Different position of the airplane. Different shot . Different shot points !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Orignaltext from the 12.09 Uhr in german from the original: Wübbe:

Ich griff einen 5. englischen Jäger, eine Hurricane an, die
im Tiefflug auf eine englische Flakstellung auf den Fluplatz
Gambut zu flog. Die Hurricance bermerkte mich erst, als ich ca.
40 m dahinter sass und zog ruckartig hoch, legte sic auf den
Rücken und Drückte in einer Linkskurzve weg. Ich kurvte mit
und schoss aus einer Entfernung von ca. 50 m. Die Schüsse sas-
sen in Motor und Kabine. Die Hurricane flog in flachem Winkel
auf die englische Flakstellung zu und sclug dort um 12.09
auf.
Aufschlagort: Engl. Flakstellung ca. 2 k. südlich Gambut.

Compare it with the Tate text: replacet - by the faker:
number of the english Jäger, 4km , and the time !
The content is nearly identical ! No other ideas by the stupid faker !!
 

Old 04-28-2011, 02:37 PM   #44
Shaun Winkler
Association Member
 
Shaun Winkler's Avatar
 
Shaun Winkler is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1,519
Default

Frank I think I might have to agree with you regarding the one in the book as it doesnt show the exact same characteristics as the other originals that I have seen over the years.

If you look at the known originals they all have the exact same punch marks in the left side of the paper meaning that these were all filed together at one stage, the other thing that they show is that they have each been numbered with what looks to be a crayon or blue pencil marking written onto the top right hand side corner.

Take a look at Walters one, it is identical to mine except the number is different.



Please can you post a picture of this one as I dont have the book,

In Walter Wübbe book you can see: original:
 

Old 04-28-2011, 03:01 PM   #45
frankandfrank
Association Member
 
frankandfrank is offline
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,219
Default

The punch marks is not problem to make on the document !

Your Gefechtsbericht and Walthers are they same , but had nothing to do with the original Gefechtsberichtbericht from the Wübbe book !

Gefechtsbericht from 17.06.1942 is on page: 242 !

other one on page: 217

All in Wübbe books have the same characteristic !!

At the moment i cant scan from the Wübbe book. Perhaps a other collector can make this.

Walter Wübbe had make a very good book and research !!
 
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com