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Old 11-29-2017, 03:20 AM   #31
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There are many possibilities as why this happened.
For example?
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:50 AM   #32
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Is it also possible that Orth bought the machine from another factory, some closed on 1941 like the Schickle firm.
Is it also possible that Orth bought the leftovers of a firm (Kuban) and the stamping machine too...
Possibilities are many, many and many.
Too bad we can only speculate on this, and speculation is not a proof.
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:21 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
Is it also possible that Orth bought the machine from another factory, some closed on 1941 like the Schickle firm.
Is it also possible that Orth bought the leftovers of a firm (Kuban) and the stamping machine too...
Possibilities are many, many and many.
Too bad we can only speculate on this, and speculation is not a proof.
I agree with Antonio. There are many possibilities.
What I think is hard to believe is the possibility that Orth produced (at least) two different type of Krim shields.

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Old 11-29-2017, 09:39 AM   #34
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You are denying the obvious thing. According to your mode of thinking: the other producer or Ort (who bought the equipment) has to adjust the new type of the stamp (dimentions) according the ready plates. If you know the production process, you will be agree that it doesn't have any sense.
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Old 11-29-2017, 09:45 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal H. View Post
What I think is hard to believe is the possibility that Orth produced (at least) two different type of Krim shields.

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Why not.
Deumer produced several types of
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Old 11-29-2017, 10:15 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Why not.
Deumer produced several types of
We think, and we attributed to Deumer 3 types, but we don't really know if he ever made shields... We never found and we don't have any definitive proof of that.

And with the Orth we have no one link, only speculation. Nothing really solid can link the production of Orth to those shields.
Speculation is NEVER a proof. Proof must be SOLID and UNQUESTIONABLE, they are not theories.
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Old 11-29-2017, 10:22 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
Speculation is NEVER a proof.
This is not speculation, but obvious signs that in forensics would be taken as 100% proof.
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Old 11-29-2017, 10:25 AM   #38
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Pascal and Antonio your opinion is?

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The other producer or Ort (who bought the equipment) has to adjust the new type of the stamp (dimentions) according the ready plates.
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Old 11-29-2017, 10:31 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal H. View Post
If the shape of the backplate is the same on 2 or more different type of Krim shields then I follow your theory that the back plates were supplied by the same supplier to different Krim manufacturers.
Let's get away from discussing these shields. Answer me the following questions:
Have any of you, during the whole discussion, looked at the plates on other types of shields? Found the same? I'm sure not.
Each manufacturer made a plates for himself.
Your conclusions are not confirmed by anything - this is speculation.
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Old 11-29-2017, 11:01 AM   #40
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You made a great research, but this cannot confirm in any case that Orth produced those shields.

Orth could have bought the Schickle leftovers for example, as Mayer did with the ASA, Panzer badges, etc etc.
Can you say for sure this is didn't happen?
No. You can't. Anyone can't.

Do you know when Orth stopping produce his shields? Maybe Orth sold all his production to another maker who started a new shield productio with his machines... Can you prove this didn't happen? No, you can't. Anyone can't.

I repeat: your research is great, but we miss a definitive link to be sure.
All the rest is speculation only.
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Old 11-30-2017, 04:00 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trade31 View Post
Why not.
Deumer produced several types of
I never said that it was impossible, I said "it is hard to believe". Yes there are at least 2 (maybe 3) different type of Krim shields attributed (but never proofed) to Deumer but all these shields have a similar design. The Krim shields we are now talking about are of a complete different design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Железный View Post
Let's get away from discussing these shields. Answer me the following questions:
Have any of you, during the whole discussion, looked at the plates on other types of shields? Found the same? I'm sure not.
Each manufacturer made a plates for himself.
Your conclusions are not confirmed by anything - this is speculation.
It is funny that in the same thread you're saying I'm speculating on the fact that the backplates were supplied by the same manufacturer. But in fact you're speculating on the fact that each manufacturer are making their own back plates. For this you have also no proof at all.

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Old 11-30-2017, 04:02 AM   #42
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We keep on talking about a cutting or trimming machine but IMO the cutting happens during the die struck process. This could mean that the flaws at the tabs happens during the bending process. If this the case then I think it is much more plausible that this happens at the same manufacturer, in this case Orth.

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Old 11-30-2017, 05:21 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal H. View Post
We keep on talking about a cutting or trimming machine but IMO the cutting happens during the die struck process. This could mean that the flaws at the tabs happens during the bending process. If this the case then I think it is much more plausible that this happens at the same manufacturer, in this case Orth.

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Pascal
I'm not so sure that for the shield production were used bending machines.
Trimming machine were used for sure, but bending process was IMO hand made by workers. No need an expensive machine just to bend 4 soft prongs. Furthermore the shields the firms gave to the LDO shops had no bended prongs.
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Old 11-30-2017, 06:05 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
I'm not so sure that for the shield production were used bending machines.
Trimming machine were used for sure, but bending process was IMO hand made by workers. No need an expensive machine just to bend 4 soft prongs. Furthermore the shields the firms gave to the LDO shops had no bended prongs.
I agree Antonio. That was my thought as well that the bending was done by hand. If that's the case then the same worker (or tools) was responsible for the flaws in the tab for all the above mentioned shields. One of them mark with FO.

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Old 11-30-2017, 06:15 AM   #45
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What are you talking about? What bending machines? The trace from the instrument would be on all 4 prongs in different places.
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