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Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 1949-Present From West Germany through to the modern reunified German Republic.

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Old 04-17-2010, 02:19 PM   #31
Collectinsteve
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FYI,

Today a used Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn jacket sold on German eBay for EUR 64. Solid condition, but definite signs of use. I was curious to see how high the price would go because the description did mention the Berlin Polizei stamp and therefore collectors wouldn't confuse this with the common 3rd Model BGS Sumpftarn Jacket (which is worth about 1/2 as much).

This is probably the 8th jacket I've seen. I've only seen two trousers (one posted by someone on this Forum a while back).

Steve
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Old 04-17-2010, 04:12 PM   #32
Gordon Craig
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Steve,

Good to know the going price for onr of these jackets. The next time ou see one for sale please send me a PM.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-17-2010, 04:31 PM   #33
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Gordon,

Will do! I was bidding on it with you, or someone else here, in mind. I put in a pretty good effort but in the last few minutes it went way over my EUR 40 top bid. Two people wanted it pretty badly.

For what it's worth, I think EUR 64 is about top dollar for a used jacket in obvious used condition. Jackets I've seen previously haven't sold for that much, most likely to buyer ignorance of what the actual item was.

Cheers,

Steve
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Old 04-17-2010, 09:25 PM   #34
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Steve,
It would interest me to see period photo of Berlin Bepo with sumpftarn uniform. Because helmet cover and some minor field equipment differences may not be visible in black/white photo, I guess, it could be hard to distinguish from BGS. I have not seen many field exercise photos of Berlin Bepo and none with this uniform.

Where the grey Berlin Bepo Einsatzanzüge in BGS style used at as sumpftarn same time or later? I see these on ebay.de occasionally.

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Klaus
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:09 PM   #35
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Steve,

Thanks for your effort. I have managed to put together a reasonably good start on a Berlin Bepo collection but would like to addone of these jackets at some time.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-18-2010, 04:00 PM   #36
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Klaus,

Unfortunately I have not found a single Bepo period photo of this uniform in service. Like you, I think I would find that very interesting! However, I agree it would be pretty hard to tell the difference between one and BGS since the details aren't likely to be visible in a grainy, usually low resolution, B&W photo.

Gordon,

I see probably 1-2 jackets for sale each year. Sadly, not so much luck with the trousers. Hopefully I can help you out next time I come upon a jacket at least.

Steve
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Old 11-03-2010, 09:49 PM   #37
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Do your Uniforms differ in the used material (pattern) too?
As you can see on my jacket it is made from different fabrics.
Seems to be made in 1960. Manufacturer is "Paul Heidenreich".

There are at least FOUR differences in color and pattern. Due to the bad quality of my shots only two differences are clearly visible. I will see if i can take some better shots in the next days.





The weird thing is ... i had four complete uniforms and they were all more or less like this. Only a friend of mine had a jacket that seemed to be made from only one material. I do not understand the reason why the PPBLN uniforms once were made this way.
It is not like you may have noticed on BGS jackets where the material on the elbow und the shoulders is different from the rest. On BGS jackets it is because the material is waterproof . The PPBLN uniforms completely lack of this feature.

My first post-war helmet ... this one is the reason why i started collecting in the late nineties
... yes, you got me ... i thought it was BGS for years







The label says "Arno Löffler"





And then i have a question on this pouch. I think it was something like a grenade pouch for signal or gas grenades.
Anyone ever seen such a thing?



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Old 11-03-2010, 11:30 PM   #38
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Hello Martin,

Nice collection of items! I have had a number of these jackets, trousers, and hoods in my hands before. I agree with you that there are several color variations, though I will have to differ to your count as I haven't tried to document them. I've never seen mis-matching as severe as your jacket! Wow I am also surprised they would allow such mis-matching.

I think my set (jacket, hood, and trousers) is all of one type. Or at least it is mostly of one type. I can't access it right now to check. Too much stuff in the way!

Steve
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:50 AM   #39
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Martin,

Great pictures of P.P. Berlin items. I don't ever remember seeing a bag like that before. I hope someone else can answer your question.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:59 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Craig View Post
Martin,

Great pictures of P.P. Berlin items. I don't ever remember seeing a bag like that before. I hope someone else can answer your question.

Regards,

Gordon
I had some of these Bags too and think to remember that they were discribed as respirator Bags when I got them. Somewhere I have lot's of blue-grey Backpacks, all with PPrBln Stamps in the FLap and some also in the Leather. The funny thing was that they all came from Niedersachsen as Berlin needed money and sold them to NS. Don't find the Pic in the moment, so I'll make a new one on sunday.
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Klaus,

Unfortunately I have not found a single Bepo period photo of this uniform in service. Like you, I think I would find that very interesting! However, I agree it would be pretty hard to tell the difference between one and BGS since the details aren't likely to be visible in a grainy, usually low resolution, B&W photo.

Gordon,

I see probably 1-2 jackets for sale each year. Sadly, not so much luck with the trousers. Hopefully I can help you out next time I come upon a jacket at least.

Steve
A Friend of mine told me that his unit never used the Trousers. Even in the field they had the Blues with Camo Jacket and Cap or Helmet.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:05 PM   #42
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Nico,

I know wearing a camouflage jacket/coat, but not trousers, was standard for BGS for most of the 1960s and 1970s. It does not surprise me to hear Berlin Polizei followed the same practice.

Steve
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:28 PM   #43
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I received confirmation today that this smock is on its way to me. The photos are from the seller.




As I told Steve off line, I found it odd that this smock is badged, even though it's unquestionably a "first model". It also has provisions for attaching shoulder boards, which I understand to be another later feature.

If the modifications were made in some official capacity, it would mean that someone (a veteran?) once wore this smock alongside those wearing later model jackets; which must have been a fairly uncommon sight?

If this is a collector 'restoration' project, I must say they did a better than average job, probably by using an industrial sewing machine. But why would anyone bother, especially if there was no sign of these features having been there in the first place?



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Old 12-17-2010, 12:49 AM   #44
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Very interesting! I didn't know about the rank provisions being sewn on. Odd that there are two loops like that. This is not a feature of any BGS item ever, as far as I know.

I agree there are two possibilities for this item:

1. It was worn by a BGS member sometime after 1969 or so, even though the smocks were experimental and originally made in 1957 or 1958. 1969 was about when the "Bundesgrenzschutz" arc started appearing on Sumftarn jackets/parkas.

2. Someone, at some point, thought this stuff should be on the smock to have it reach its full value, so they added them. I've been amazed at the efforts people will put into "tarting up" something and yet get the details wrong. Collectors have often been known to do the wrong things for the right reasons. Especially early collectors who were young to the hobby and/or were collecting at a time where information was extremely scarce as to what was "correct".

I'd lean more towards #2 than #1, but that's just because the odds are better that this is a mistaken "restoration" rather than a vet wearing a rare experimental jacket more than 10 years after it was rejected from service. That being said, #1 is definitely a possibility no matter how unlikely it might be.

To be clear to everybody, there are three primary problems with this particular smock:

1. this type never had rank loops and buttons
2. no BGS item ever had double loops for rank
3. this type never had badging on either arm

Regardless, this is a very rare piece of camouflage and if you choose to carefully remove the modifications I'm sure the result would be putting it back nearly to original condition. The cloth should recover from the stitching pretty well, provided the needle didn't pull any of the fibers (happens with dull needles).

Steve

P.S. There is a guy on eBay now who thinks a smock like this is worth close to EUR 1000. This despite the fact I've never seen one sell for more than about EUR 300. I wish him luck
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:54 AM   #45
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Oh, and I could be wrong but the rank loops look setup to accept the 2nd model rank. This is the type with wider plastic reinforced part that feeds through the loop. The 1st model rank has a much narrower, 100% cloth piece to go through the loop. The change happened around 1970, with earlier jackets being setup for the old type and newer jackets setup for the newer type. The new type will not fit in the old type loops without a significant struggle and crunching of plastic. Therefore, if the 2nd model rank fits on this jacket then it's further evidence that these modifications were made after about 1970.

Steve
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