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Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 1949-Present From West Germany through to the modern reunified German Republic.

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Old 09-21-2007, 03:54 PM   #46
Dave Danner
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Is there a date for that last photo?
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:02 PM   #47
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Guardian 5: Where did you find those pouches, belt, and canteen? I have never seen those items. Never seen the Sumpftarn jacket before either! I did not mean ike jackets, I meant the WH style ones like in the last photo. My breadbag is not green like yours but tan and marked "1957", some illegible factory stamps, and the soldier's last name - "Thill". On a side note, I have BGS-issue Esbit stove and bakelite butterdish from the 1950s or early '60s.

The last photo is great. Looks like how the Bundeswehr should have looked... But then they would be more collectible, like East German.

One of the Bundeswehr field jackets I have is kind of salty-looking and I found an empty bag marked 1974 (same year as tunic) for a gas mask component in the breast pocket. But the jacket has no sign of badges or name having been sewn on then removed - it obviously looks issued though. If anyone can help...

Klaus

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Bgs
Old 09-21-2007, 09:26 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
Guardian 5: Where did you find those pouches, belt, and canteen? I have never seen those items. Never seen the Sumpftarn jacket before either! I did not mean ike jackets, I meant the WH style ones like in the last photo. My breadbag is not green like yours but tan and marked "1957", some illegible factory stamps, and the soldier's last name - "Thill". On a side note, I have BGS-issue Esbit stove and bakelite butterdish from the 1950s or early '60s.

The last photo is great. Looks like how the Bundeswehr should have looked... But then they would be more collectible, like East German.

One of the Bundeswehr field jackets I have is kind of salty-looking and I found an empty bag marked 1974 (same year as tunic) for a gas mask component in the breast pocket. But the jacket has no sign of badges or name having been sewn on then removed - it obviously looks issued though. If anyone can help...

Klaus
Klaus - I've got some 'splaining to do, will try and provide some more details soon. Damn family is demanding my attention again, not to mention the hot Boston sports scene.

With any luck, Gordon will come to our rescue until I can get you the info you seek. In the meantime, check out this pic of a BGS trooper from Panzerbaer.com. Note the open face belt buckle and "kokonus/coconut feldflasche". As for the early FN style ammo pouches - forget about it!

Talk to you soon - TJ
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Kommmandeur der GSG 9, Ulrich K. Wegener
Old 09-21-2007, 09:33 PM   #49
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Default Kommmandeur der GSG 9, Ulrich K. Wegener

Gordon - Can you imagine this guy wearing as something as hokey as the ensemble you mentioned on the other net; I don't think so!

Crisp precision is the hallmark of the GSG9, hard to find in the offline get-up you shared with me.

Limited number of Sandfarben uniforms on display in Munster, fried brain cells are rearing their faulty connections again! A couple of pix top follow.


TJ
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Munster Uniforms
Old 09-21-2007, 09:37 PM   #50
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Default Munster Uniforms

BGS filed grade & BW Sandfarben as discussed earlier.
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Slightly different angle
Old 09-21-2007, 09:39 PM   #51
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Default Slightly different angle

Another shot of Sandfarben
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Old 09-22-2007, 03:24 AM   #52
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Dave,

The photo is not dated in the book. The BGS book does not go into rank insignia, times of intruduction etc. The BW insignia is much better identified and because of that we can probably take an educated guess at the photo being from the early 60's. The BW changed from pointed shoulderstraps to round ones in 1962. It would seem resonable to assume the BGS changed at roughly the same time. There is also a very similar photo later in the book which is dated 1963.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 09-22-2007, 03:38 AM   #53
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Klaus,

The BW sumpftarn jacket is rare but they do come up for sale on ebay.de from time to time. I was lucky enough to buy one of the jackets as one of my first BW purchases. It tokk me 10 to 15 years to add the hood for the jacket and trousers. These last two items are super rare and you hardly ever see them. They command high prices in Germany for this reason. I believe that the sumpftarn was used in the late 50s and early 60s. The camo apron/zeltbahn TJ posted being worn by the BGS soldier firing the energa grenade probably predates the sumpftarn and I do not know what it is called. I have a BW shelter quarter which is similar to the early type camo. It is camo on one side and white on the other.
From your desription of the "salty" BW uniform I can not come up with any answers as I am not sure just what you are refering to. A picture would help.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 09-22-2007, 03:44 AM   #54
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TJ,

Thanks for the pics from Munster and of the Sandfarben. I must get to the museum and school some time soon. I have a sandfarben tunic at home in storage and like most rare tunics someone took the insignia off it before I acquired it. There is a nice sandfarben uniform on ebay.de right now but the vendor will only ship within Germany. The bane of my existance! Your BW thread seems to have taken us in several different direction so instead of adding to it I think I'll start some threads on separate parts of West German uniforms etc.

Rgeards,

Gordon
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BGS w/ G-1; 1966
Old 09-22-2007, 06:41 PM   #55
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Default BGS w/ G-1; 1966

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Danner View Post
Is there a date for that last photo?
Dave - Here is another shot of a BGS Honor Guard, this one is dated 1 DEC 1966. Notice they have yet to adopt the BGS tab at this time.

G5
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Old 09-22-2007, 07:08 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
Guardian 5: Where did you find those pouches, belt, and canteen? I have never seen those items. Never seen the Sumpftarn jacket before either! I did not mean ike jackets, I meant the WH style ones like in the last photo. My breadbag is not green like yours but tan and marked "1957", some illegible factory stamps, and the soldier's last name - "Thill". On a side note, I have BGS-issue Esbit stove and bakelite butterdish from the 1950s or early '60s.


The last photo is great. Looks like how the Bundeswehr should have looked... But then they would be more collectible, like East German.

One of the Bundeswehr field jackets I have is kind of salty-looking and I found an empty bag marked 1974 (same year as tunic) for a gas mask component in the breast pocket. But the jacket has no sign of badges or name having been sewn on then removed - it obviously looks issued though. If anyone can help...

Klaus
Klaus - For more information on BGS Sumpftarn and the rest, I highly recommend Daniel Peterson's, Wehrmacht Camouflage Uniforms & Post War Derivatives, 1995, published by Europa Militaria. The attached photo is of the man himself in, you guessed it, BGS Sumpftarn. This is an early set, note the pouch for a first aid packet.

The G1 magazine pouches are fairly common. The ones I've handled have been marked 1957 - 1972. There are some on sale right now at I.O. Inc. for $14.95 a set (includes FN/G1 magazines). Their contact information is www.ioinc.us or 866-882-1479.

Oftentimes when you see a "Wehrmacht Officer's belt" on sale, you're really seeing an BGS belt. Check them carefully, a newer looking belt lacking TR stamps is a good indicator of West German manufacture.

The canteens pop up every once in a while, I've seen them on Manion's. I bought mine at German Flea Markets. In addition to BGS green, they also come in Tan and Gray (THW/ZD use?)

I'm pretty sure the BGS used tan bread bags, that's an area I'm still investigating. It look's as though you have the right stuff to go into it!

I'd have to see a picture of your BW jacket to be of assistance in this query.

Take care - G5
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BGS in Ike Jackets
Old 09-22-2007, 09:07 PM   #57
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Default BGS in Ike Jackets

Klaus - here's a picture of an early BGS patrol, c.1953.

Note the "Ike" jackets; Beretta 38/49 carried by the element leader; and MG 42 carried muzzle down by the man directly behind him.

The helmet covers are in post-war splinter pattern, a subject covered in Peterson's book.

G5
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Old 09-23-2007, 02:43 PM   #58
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Guardian5: Thanks for the IO, Inc. link. They have the exact West German-manufactured StG58/ G1 (FN) pouches I am looking for and at $3.95 a piece they are good deal - the set you mentioned is Austrian. The y-straps, boots, mess kit, and shovel are no problem. The helmets are plentiful but people charge more than they are worth. (Any clue why some have a decal and some do not?).

Tan breadbags were used early I believe - holdover from the WH. I have the helmet net (like in post #48) and equipment straps as well. Did they ever carry any kind of bayonet? The photos it is hard to tell.

BGS are not Bundeswehr, so maybe we should split this into a new thread, "For the Bundesgrenzschutz lover in all of us"! The BGS seems to be hijacking this thread.

Klaus
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:08 AM   #59
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Klaus,

I think that you are correct and we should have a separate BGS and BW thread so I will try and find time to start a BGS thread later this week.
Back to the BW. Here is a picture of a very early pair of BW camouflage trouser that was just auctioned off on ebay.de this weekend. I didn't bid on this auction as I already have a set and someone else can use them more. They would date from the 50s.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:23 PM   #60
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Gents,

Here is an early Bundeswehr peaked cap that I won on an ebay.de auction this weekend. It is a piped hat with a WWII makers. The photos speak for themselves.

Regards,

Gordon
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