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Railway dagger Klaas
Old 08-17-2018, 08:19 AM   #1
Francisque
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Default Railway dagger Klaas

Hi,

Please opinion about this one?
Maker is Klaas. Scabbard with asterics is Klaas typical fabrication too.

Authentic railway dagger?

Thanks a lot.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:19 AM   #2
Schlange
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I see only Heer standard Heer dagger M1935.
White handle was fell of from handle. (Or or somebody took it off.)


Schlange

https://mojalbum.com/schlange88

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=916564
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:28 AM   #3
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Of the same opinion as Schlange, I've been told that the collector's myth of the so-called 1st model Railway daggers actually started prior to the publication of Atwood's book - which is the first printed "reference" that I was aware of. Discussed other times, and at length elsewhere there is zero period evidence that they (as Railway daggers) existed - not that it has stopped some dealers/others from claiming that they are "real" . Many examples still having some slight traces of paint it's also possible some postwar handles were also manufactured for the "Collector Market". FP
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:57 AM   #4
Wim Vangossum
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I'm also a non believer. They probably once were painted white. Same story with the Luftwaffe Funeral Dagger. But if I'm not mistaking somewhere in the Johnson book series there is a story of a former railway beambte who had both this type of dagger together with the normal pattern railway dagger. However I believe there were no pictures available when he worn the things.


Regards, Wim
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:13 PM   #5
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For what's it is worth; I've owned other Black gripped Army daggers by other makers than Klaas, and those example never had any traces of paint on them, and the grips were not Klaas type. All examples I had seen had the solid Trolon grip made material.

What were they ? I don't know.
Back-In-Day, we used to call them 'Engineer Daggers'.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:52 AM   #6
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Atwood mentions the "Engineer" aspect, which I'm assuming was supposed to be for German Army Engineers? Then goes on to say that is an incorrect assumption. Based on what I don't know as he doesn't offer the reasons why not. There are some, but likewise it does not appear to have any period basis. Trolon of the period itself just a brand name of one maker for an inherently unstable cast plastic resin that degraded from the surface layer inward (something that was known at the time). Regards, Fred
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:48 PM   #7
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To me a Klaas dagger with a black grip is a standard army dagger with a grip that was once painted white. I have a few in my collection in different stages of paint loss. I know of several examples where a collector removed the white paint deliberately just to own a black grip army dagger.

Danny
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:47 PM   #8
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These should be called Dealers daggers, daggers for profit, 1st railway dagger

The stuff you come across in the crazy TR collecting saga
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:42 AM   #9
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What links these black handled Army daggers to the Railway ?


Any soild evidence out there ?

A dealers fable just like the DJ knifes ?
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:49 AM   #10
angler
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I have seen both luft and heer by this maker. IMO they were originally painted white and were just what thay appear to be. An army dagger and a luftwaffe dagger.

it was most probably the makers decision to cast the grips in a black material rather than a more chemically complex white.
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac 66 View Post
What links these black handled Army daggers to the Railway ?


Any soild evidence out there ?

A dealers fable just like the DJ knifes ?
From what I've observed there is no evidence to be found. Zero. That said, because of a lack of actual knowledge over time especially the TR era seems to have acquired a whole series of “collector/dealers myths” - along with a number of fakes and/or postwar modified items all designed to make certain items more sought after. The so-called “DJ” knives and its successors a good of example of clearly postwar fakery, and the so-called 1st model Railway (and Luftwaffe “funeral” daggers) the failure of the supposed 'experts' in the field to realize that period German makers were just adapting to reality. That being that the cast white phenolic plastic resins (that were by themselves very problematic to produce on a commercial scale) were no longer being made. And substitutes both painted and made from still available materials like milk, painted and wood cored etc. were the most readily available materials to still manufacture the required white color grips. FP
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogprince View Post
From what I've observed there is no evidence to be found. Zero. That said, because of a lack of actual knowledge over time especially the TR era seems to have acquired a whole series of “collector/dealers myths” - along with a number of fakes and/or postwar modified items all designed to make certain items more sought after. The so-called “DJ” knives and its successors a good of example of clearly postwar fakery, and the so-called 1st model Railway (and Luftwaffe “funeral” daggers) the failure of the supposed 'experts' in the field to realize that period German makers were just adapting to reality. That being that the cast white phenolic plastic resins (that were by themselves very problematic to produce on a commercial scale) were no longer being made. And substitutes both painted and made from still available materials like milk, painted and wood cored etc. were the most readily available materials to still manufacture the required white color grips. FP



Thanks Fred
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac 66 View Post
Thanks Fred
What is often forgotten when discussing the Klass “ railway dagger” is the handle is longer than on standard army daggers. That does not occur with any other dagger , which suggests it’s meant to set itself apart from the standard size army dagger. There must be thousands of photos of army daggers in wear but none of a black handled variety . I was thinking perhaps they were presented to the parents of fallen Officers early on in the war before the mass slaughter ? Rob
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBB View Post
What is often forgotten when discussing the Klass “ railway dagger” is the handle is longer than on standard army daggers. That does not occur with any other dagger , which suggests it’s meant to set itself apart from the standard size army dagger. There must be thousands of photos of army daggers in wear but none of a black handled variety . I was thinking perhaps they were presented to the parents of fallen Officers early on in the war before the mass slaughter ? Rob
Not true. I believe that WMW grips are longer than standard as well.
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:16 PM   #15
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How close would you have to be to see any differnce in the length of a dagger handle that somebody was wearing? The difference in length a very minor one, the German Army (and Luftwaffe/other) swords had a reason for the different lengths which was related to the height of the individual.

Now what could the reason be for those who wore daggers? Could its be that the extra long handles were to allow selected Officers admittance to an exclusive Officer’s Club. The handle was inserted into a slot next to the door - and if it wasn’t long enough - NO ADMITTANCE!! FP
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