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The portepee,knot,troddel thread.
Old 08-21-2009, 02:32 PM   #1
REMUS
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Default The portepee,knot,troddel thread.

Hi everybody,

I am collecting bayonets for a while now,but I am still in the learning process.There is so much to learn and read,but it is all worth the effort.

Now there is a thing where there is not so much info on;the troddel.Personally,I find these troddels fascinating,and they really dress up the bayonet.It looks great on them with all the diffirent colors.

I have a few books about them,but all are in English language,so it is not allways easy for me to understand all what is written.That's why I would like to start this thread,to learn a lot about them,and to understand why they were worn,who wore them,and when.

I hope it will become an enjoyable and learnsome thread,and please,feel free to share your thoughts and if possible,pics.

Kind regards,Jeremy
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:39 PM   #2
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I would like to start by asking when wy speak about a troddel,a knot or a portepee,and what the diffirence is between them.Sometimes,for example when the are being sold,they are called a knot,then a portapee,then a troddel,while it seems to me thet there is no diffirence between them.

That's the first thing I would like to get right

For example the one that I will show here.What is the only correct name for this one?
Thanks!
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:40 PM   #3
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Old 08-21-2009, 07:28 PM   #4
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Jeremy,

You show a wartime Troddel worn on bayonets. This is a style of enlisted "knot" and they are very colorful because they indicate the specific unit, often down to the company level. Yours is the 11th Company of the IIIrd Battalion of Infantry. It can also indicate the 9th Battery of Artillery, depending upon the specific time frame as these designations changed somewhat with re-organization of units. It is considered wartime because the cloth strap is grey instead of the peacetime color of white.

The other enlisted knot is the Faustriemen worn on both bayonets and swords. The Faustriemen has similar color combinations for the slide, the stem, and the crown of the knot which is generally made of cotton or wool. The strap is leather on these and the knot is not round but oval. The leather strap can be several colors which can indicate the branch of service. NCOs wore a green Faustriemen (and Troddel) with aluminum highlights to distinguish their rank and their attachment to Staff as opposed to a specific unit.

Officers and Senior NCOs (Unteroffizier mit Portepee) wore the Portepee. The Portepee could be worn on bayonets, swords, or daggers depending upon the style. These knots were similar in shape to the Troddel or the Faustriemen but were highlighted with aluminum wire. The strap was metal cloth or leather with metal threads. The slider, stem, crown, and ball were typically wire (often aluminum) to indicate their rank. So, the Portepee is distinguished from the other two styles of enlisted knots by the use of woven/twisted metal wire.

I hope this is helpful.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:16 PM   #5
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George freakin' RULES! Glad to have you here...see you at the MAX

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Old 08-21-2009, 08:17 PM   #6
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Hello George,

That's a great little refresher course for all of us. Thanks.


Hi Jeremy,

I find these quite interesting as well. I have several but these two are all I have photos of at the moment.

Regards,
Stu
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:39 PM   #7
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Jeremy,

Excellent idea for a thread, we're always looking for additional info on such things as accouterments & with guys like SCHUPO around, the answers will come fast. Here's my sole troddel, 1st Company 3rd Battalion. I'd have more to offer if we were talking fire or police bayonets
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Old 08-22-2009, 02:14 PM   #8
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George,

Thank you very much for your reply,it helps a great deal

So,that clears up who wore what,but have to be sure about one more thing.

Am I correct when I say that EM,and junior NCO(Unteroffizier ohne Portepee,till Feldwebel),wore the troddel,and Faustriemen?Then we have the senior NCO(Unteroffizier mit Portepee,from Feldwebel up)and officers,wore the Portepee?

I hope I am correct,and then I am on the way

What about this one?This one is reffered to as an NCO Troddel.So this one could only be worn by Junior NCO's,not EM and Senior NCO's???

Thanks.
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Old 08-22-2009, 02:20 PM   #9
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Hi Billy,

Are you correct with that 1st company,3th battalion?

Don't worry my friend,we'll get to these beauties as well
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Old 08-22-2009, 02:22 PM   #10
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Hi Stu,

Great pieces!!

Feel free to share any thoughts on this thread,I would really appreciate it.
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:37 PM   #11
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Jeremy,

Yes, what you say is generally correct. I don't recall offhand what the rank cutoff between Junior and Senior NCOs is but certainly a Heer Hauptfeldwebel would wear a n Officer style Portepee while a no-pip Sergeant would wear the Faustriemen u. Troddel für Unteroffizier. Likewise a private could not wear the NCO Troddel that you show.

Incidentally, the Troddel and Faustriemen were worn with loose tassels in the ball until 6 July 1928. After that date the ball was sewn closed by regulation. But, long serving soldiers could continue to wear their old knots so these regulations should be taken with a grain of salt. Photographs show these old style knots still in wear as late as circa 1935.
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:12 PM   #12
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George,

Thanks again for your reply.

So far,so good.A little bit about the Faustriemen.I've just read in your book about them,and I understand who wore them.But,what was the reason that there was an NCO Faustriemen for the Heer,while they had the Troddel?Was it just a personel choise,or were there regulations about it?Also,were there only Faustriemen for NCO and EM,not for officers?

This a Faustriemen that I bought a while ago.It has the grey band for Luftwaffe,but is it for EM,or NCO,or both?
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:13 PM   #13
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:58 PM   #14
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I believe that originally the Troddel was generally worn by Imperial German foot troops and the Faustriemen was worn by mounted personnel. Of course that evolved to where speicalty units like truckborn Infantry, Luftwaffe, and Zollschutz wore the Faustriemen. They were only worn by enlisted men and NCOs in the Heer and Luftwaffe but the Zoll indicated rank grades by the amount of green or silver (or white) that was in the ball.

There is no simple answer I am afraid. Frankly it is a complex system that evolved over a long period of time.
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Old 08-28-2009, 03:42 PM   #15
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George,

Thank you very much.

It took me a while to understand,translate and learn the subject so far,but it's going well.

I would like to talk about the correct edged weapon that fits the correct knot now.

First we have the KS98.I've learned that the long model was for EM,and the short model for NCO's,and officers.However,I've read in your book that NCO's sometimes wore the long model,and that even some privates ware the short model.So,the 2 KS98 that I show in the pics belowe could,allthough not according the standard rules,perfectly possible been worn this way?

I am sure NCO Troddel on the long model was added after the war,but the Troddel on the short model,seems to be wartime.The long model has green felt in the slot,the short one red.
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