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Old 12-30-2012, 03:37 AM   #46
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Oldflag,
My mistake.
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in the rubble ...
Old 12-30-2012, 11:53 AM   #47
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Default in the rubble ...

Swastika flags ending up in the rubble.
OFW

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German captured RN White Ensign
Old 12-31-2012, 03:49 AM   #48
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Default German captured RN White Ensign

German captured Royal Navy (UK) White Ensign.
OFW
(below) By mountain snow looks like maybe from Norway.
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Italy captured RN White Ensign
Old 01-01-2013, 03:30 AM   #49
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Default Italy captured RN White Ensign

Italian capture of a Royal Navy (UK) White Ensign.
OFW
(below) Removal the hard way.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg italian-removal-uk-OFW.jpg (57.7 KB, 1008 views)

Last edited by oldflagswanted; 01-01-2013 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:41 AM   #50
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In addition to the Odenwald photo, a picture from my collection. We also know where the flag went. If it's still there?

Kind regards,

Maurice
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File Type: jpg Odenwald_0003 laag.jpg (59.9 KB, 1077 views)
File Type: jpg Odenwald_0001 laag.jpg (169.8 KB, 1074 views)
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the "false flag" tactic ...
Old 01-02-2013, 10:03 AM   #51
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Default the "false flag" tactic ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice View Post
...Odenwald photo...
Maurice
Hello Maurice:
Noted that the press release flag photo caption says that
the Odenwald was "disguised and flew the Stars and Stripes".

An interesting WW2 example of the couple century earlier English
Royal Navy invented tactic called the "false flag" - an nice example

of same can be seen in the Gregory Peck Hollywood movie "Captain
Horatio Hornblower". The British also used this same tactic on the HMS
Cambelltown during WW2 while attacking the French Port Dry Dock
flying a British made Nazi RKF. Somewhere I have on file a photo of
Germans displaying the French Port captured Cambelltown UK made
RKF, just before the ship blew up killing the German inspection party.
*** ---> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid
During the WW2 Allied St. Nazaire Raid ("Operation Chariot"), a WW1
former US destroyer,
renamed HMS Campbelltown, was altered by the
Royal Navy to
look like a German Raubvogel class torpedo boat. And
the Campbelltown
flew a now rare UK made RKF of regulation size, the
Germans took a photo of the captured UK made RKF
before the ship's
hidden time bomb blew
up killing 360 Germans who were inspecting
the Allied ship
that was crashed into the dry dock gate. Now that would
be the RKF
to own! But that Allied RKF (war-flag) may have been blown
to bits?

OFW(below) As made for and issued to US & UK Navy fleet ships, rare today...
PS/ Likewise, "...On 19 November 1941 the [German Raider] Kormoran and HMS Sydney
in the Indian Ocean ... off the coast of Western Australia between Carnaron and Geraldton.
At the time, the German raider was flying a false flag while posing as the Dutch freighter,
the Straat Malakka, with a black hull and black funnel. Captain Detmers hoped to pass by
undetected, but Sydney closed in to investigate. The German ship maintained its deception
until range was about 1,500 metres (1,600 yd), which gave it a better chance of attacking
the superior Australian warship. According to the surviving crewmen of Kormoran, the Australian
warship was not expecting battle nor fully prepared for it as her secondary guns were unmanned
and therefore not trained on Kormoran. Taken by surprise, Sydney was hit about 50 times by
the raider's 5.9-inch (150 mm) heavy guns before she managed to return fire. Overall, Sydney
received approximately 150 hits."
OFW
...................................
(below) from the WW2 Allied St. Nazaire Raid ("Operation Chariot")

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File Type: jpg HMS_Campbeltown-WAF.jpg (91.9 KB, 1035 views)
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North Korean & Red China captured ...
Old 01-03-2013, 03:55 AM   #52
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Default North Korean & Red China captured ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TP Alexander View Post
In my opinion, some of the rarest items to be brought home
to the US are items from the Korean War! In over 40 years
of collecting, I have seen 3 items captured and returned to
the US that were North Korean or Red Chinese!!! Two of
these items were pieces of paper-propaganda missives.
Tim
Hello Tim:
Ditto that, based on the very few I've seen over 40+ years
of collecting military flags. IMO rarest are the unit types.

From the 1980's I recall seeing a PBS multi-night series on
the Korean War showing veteran soldier interviews from
both sides? At the end was also shown several captured US
unit flags on display in the North Korean War Museum - like
the 31st US Infantry example now on display in China. I would
like to find out more about those captured US unit flags, such
as just what units they were from?
Likely, the 555th FAB, 8th
US Cavalry, etc.

OFW
(below) North Korean & Red China captured (photo confirmed) ...
PQMD made 31st flag on display in the China Museum. OFW

(below) full display photo of the Korean War captured US 31st Infantry Regiment flag.

(below) "Loss of Colors" the cover up (from CMH online):
"...Official Army records contain no mention of any unit of
the United States Army having lost its colors to the enemy
during World War II, the Korean War, or the war in Vietnam.
There is also no record of any unit having its colors taken
away as a punishment for any action at any time in the history
of the United States Army. There have been several rumors
concerning various units losing their colors. These are
generally false. Some of these include: a. The 1st Cavalry
Division in Korea. The incident that apparently gave rise to
this false rumor appears to be the Unsan Engagement which took
place on 1 and 2 November 1950 at Unsan, Korea. In that battle,
the 8th Cavalry, a component of the 1st Cavalry Division, was
pushed back from positions in and around the town of Unsan by
vastly superior Chinese forces. The regiment was severely battered,
suffering heavy casualties and losing a considerable amount of
equipment. This was one of the first major Chinese operations in
the Korean War and, like the Changjin (Chosin) Reservoir Battle of
this same period, it took the United Nations Command by surprise.
Considering the circumstances, the 8th Cavalry fought very well,
and it has never been criticized for its conduct in this operation.
b. The question of the loss of colors by the 7th Cavalry at Little
Big Horn has also generated considerable debate. Although this office
has no conclusive evidence one way or the other, it has been suggested
that Custer's personal flag along with several troop guidons were taken,
but that the regimental flag was not captured. A regimental flag
subsequently turned up at the Custer Battlefield National Monument in
Crow Agency, Montana, but it has never been verified that this was the
flag at Little Big Horn. There is also a rumor that the 7th Cavalry
lost its colors in Korea. This can be tracked back to the 7th's
association with the 1st Cavalry Division and the incident detailed
in para 5a (above)."
Originally prepared by DAMH-HSO [later DAMH-FPO]
12 October 1989, [web] page created 24 October 2001
OFW
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burned before capture ???
Old 01-04-2013, 04:13 AM   #53
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Default burned before capture ???

Before loss to the enemy, if time allowed, often flags were
burned to prevent their capture. In Napoleonic times some
zealous French soldiers then even ate the remaining ashes
of their burnt unit flag - no kidding!
On 30 Nov 1950 the 2nd
US Engineer Battalion, under attack by 5 Chinese divisions,
burned their colors to deny the enemy a war trophy.

OFW

(below) Korean War Battle of Kunu-ri remembered
http://www.stripes.com/news/korean-war-battle-of-kunu-ri-remembered-1.26758
Soldiers from the 2nd Engineer Battalion burn the colors at Camp Casey,
South Korea, on Wednesday. The annual ceremony is a re-enactment of
the actions of 2nd Engineer Battalion Commander Lt. Col. Alarich Zacherle
[order to burn the colors] at the Korean War battle at Kunu-ri in 1950.


"CAMP CASEY, South Korea — It took years of searching through Army surplus stores
to assemble the uniform retired 2nd Engineer Battalion Maj. Arden Rowley, 74, wore
to his old unit’s Burning of the Colors ceremony Wednesday.

Rowley’s original uniform wore out during the 33 months he spent in North Korean
prisoner of war camps after he was captured at the Korean War Battle of Kunu-ri —
the event commemorated at the ceremony.

The annual Burning of the Colors is a re-enactment of the actions of 2nd Engineer
Battalion Commander Lt. Col. Alarich Zacherle at Kunu-ri, north of Pyongyang, on
Nov. 30, 1950.

On that day the engineers were guarding the rear of the 2nd Infantry Division as
it retreated in the face of overwhelming odds, under attack from five Chinese
divisions.

According to the program for the ceremony, “Zacherle realized the 2nd Engineer
Battalion would soon be overrun and unable to withdraw. In an effort to deny the
enemy the Battalion colors as a war trophy, he ordered the colors to be burned.”

All but one officer from the 2nd Engineer Battalion was killed or captured in the
battles around Kunu-ri. More than 5,000 American soldiers were killed, wounded or
captured. Many of those taken prisoner did not survive the harsh conditions of the
North Korean POW camps.

Rowley wore his Korean War era uniform as he recalled his own POW experience for
members of today’s 2nd Engineer Battalion, veterans and other 2nd ID soldiers at
the ceremony.

He bought the uniform, which included a long pile jacket and cap with earflaps to
provide extra warmth in Korea’s extreme winter cold, piece by piece at Army surplus
stores after the war, he said.

“In May 1994, I returned to the area of Panmunjom where on August 18, 1953,
I gained my freedom after 33 months being held in North Korea. We crossed the
Freedom Bridge. It was an experience I will never forget. Three thousand, five hundred
American soldiers returned over that bridge of freedom. I thought of those 3,500
American soldiers and many soldiers of other nations who did not return with us —
those men who died of the extreme cold, malnutrition or abuse at the hands of their
captors,” he said.

Rowley, who was an enlisted soldier during the Korean War, recalled the first time he
saw a U.S. flag after 2½ years as a POW.


“Some of us enlisted had a chance to visit the officers at a POW camp. We had not
seen our officers in 2 years. On the second evening an officer approached several
enlisted men and we made our way into the completely darkened camp kitchen,”
he said.

The officer turned on a light in the kitchen to reveal a cake decorated with a U.S. flag,
he said.

“It had been 2½ years since we had had the privilege of looking upon that symbol
of freedom. The cake became to us the real flag of our nation. We held our hands
over our hearts and recited the pledge of allegiance to the flag and remembered the
many who had given their lives. I remember thinking about what would happen if
the guards discovered us, but I didn’t have to worry for long because we quickly
devoured the evidence,” Rowley said.

The old soldier also read an account of a comrade who died in the Korean War with
a frozen tear on his cheek.

“What were his last thoughts as he lay dying? Was he thinking about his girlfriend
back home … his mother … his child … was he having a conversation with God? He
did not have a nurse in a crisp clean uniform wrap a blanket around him. His cries
of ‘medic’ went unanswered,” Rowley said.

Some of the men who suffered during the Korean War might have wondered if
their sacrifices would be worth it, he said.

“(On a previous trip to South Korea) I retraced the steps of the 2nd ID as we
stopped the North Korean advance at the Pusan perimeter. By retracing those
steps and along the way to see the Korean people so happy and prosperous
whereas at that time (during the war) they were such a pitiful and abused
people I received a confirmation in my mind that our sacrifices were worth it,”
he said.

Another veteran’s reasons for attending this year’s flag burning ceremony
were less complicated.

Jim Ditton, 77, of Surprise, Ariz., said he came to see the pride had by the
battalion and the engineers have and “the camaraderie and enthusiasm of
the present soldiers.”



Last edited by oldflagswanted; 01-04-2013 at 04:36 AM.
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more burned before capture ???
Old 01-05-2013, 04:14 AM   #54
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Default more burned before capture ???

Before loss to the enemy, if time allowed, often flags were
burned to prevent their capture.
This occurred at the end of
WW2 with most Imperial Japanese Army regimental flags. The
burn order was ignored by the 321st Infantry flag bearer, who
returned the flag years later - the only known Infantry example
left from WW2, now in the Tokyo Yasukuni Shrine & war museum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine
OFW
(below) From WAF t=288282 post #25 & 30, by Nick Komiya
"The picture showing the burning of the flag on a ship depicts the event on
June 15, 1904 during the Russo-Japanese War. The ship Hitachimaru was
cornered by three Russian ships. On board was the 1st Regiment of the
Imperial Guards. Hitachimaru chose sinking rather than surrender. Lt.
Colonel Genjiro Suchi of the Guards ordered the burning of the Army flag
and said to have committed seppuku with a smile of relief on his face.
Hitachimaru then was sunk by the Russian guns. The 1st Guards were
reissued their flag at a later date; one of 5 cases where the flags were
reissued to the same unit.
...on Jan 10, 1885, the ...standard with a
RED fringe was established for Second Reserve Inft Regiments. ...The
flag burned on board the Hitachimaru in 1904 should have had a red
fringe, as the Imperial Guards on board were a second reserve unit."


(below) Japanese 321st Infantry flag spared end of WW2 burning,
n
ow on display in Tokyo Yasukuni Shrine. (b) IJA Infantry flag spec.
As I post this, now watching "The Brigand of Kandahar" on free
over the air DTV-40-2 ---> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058991/

Attached Images
File Type: jpg japflag321st-waf.jpg (57.4 KB, 929 views)
File Type: jpg jap-reg-flag-spec-inf288282.jpg (158.2 KB, 930 views)

Last edited by oldflagswanted; 01-05-2013 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:10 PM   #55
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War

I remember seeing a movie when I was younger (back in the 20th Century!). It was something about an ex-soldier, returning to the United States from the Spanish Civil War. He had the remains of a regimental flag with him or something to that effect. The Germans were trying to recover said flag (or ashes thereof) as they had won that battle and wanted the flag as their just fruits of that particular victory. During the film, the soldier was talking to an old man about captured regimental battle flags. You had to be in the know, militarily speaking, to get the gist of just how important these flags were to all parties involved, so it probably didn't have a big audience when it was released.
It had a very dark atmosphere & was in black and white. It was produced in 1943, so of course it's a very patriotic movie. It was called THE FALLEN SPARROW & starred John Garfield & Maureen O'Hara and was a real piece of filmnoir. John Garfield excelled at these kinds of roles.
Here's a link to YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTa2jv3ebCI

If you get a chance to watch it, I think you'd enjoy it.
Tim

Last edited by TP Alexander; 01-05-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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The fallen sparrow
Old 01-06-2013, 04:55 AM   #56
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Default The fallen sparrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by TP Alexander View Post
...a movie ...something about an ex-soldier, returning to
the United States from the Spanish Civil War. He had the
remains of a regimental flag with him or something to that
effect. The Germans were trying to recover said flag (or ashes
thereof) as they had won that battle and wanted the flag as
their just fruits of that particular victory. During the film, the
soldier was talking to an old man about captured regimental
battle flags. You had to be in the know, militarily speaking, to
get the gist of just how important these flags were to all parties
involved... It was called THE FALLEN SPARROW & starred John
Garfield & Maureen O'Hara and was a real piece of filmnoir. ...
Tim
Hello Tim:
THE FALLEN SPARROW, is o
ne of my all time favorites.
Not just due to John Garfield, but of all people a thin John
Banner (later Sgt. Schultz in Hogan's Heroes). You will have
to look hard for the film plot flag, as it is never actually shown
(a McGuffin as Hitchcock says on his TCM spot). Only part
of the Spanish Civil War Republican battle standard shown
is a medallion of the Lion of San Rafael, the medallion that
had been attached to Kit's (Garfield's) SCW brigade's flag.

Based on the 1942 Dorothy B. Hughes novel of the same
name, but not about a flag, but rather an engraved cup.
IMO the best part of the 1943 movie is the screen play added
dialog about the significance of captured battle flags, and
even how retaining the burnt ashes of captured flags can still
hold symbolic purpose to both the victors & the defeated.

OFW

(below) Prince Francois St. Louis (Sam Goldenberg) explains about
captured flags to "Kit" McKitrick (John Garfield), later showing burnt
flag ashes also as proof of victory, and the "house honor sustained."


Last edited by oldflagswanted; 01-06-2013 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:07 AM   #57
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From my collection. Finnish soldiers with captured Soviet flag

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7 scroll arms date ???
Old 01-07-2013, 09:31 PM   #58
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Default 7 scroll arms date ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqu View Post
From my collection. Finnish soldiers with captured Soviet flag
Hello Aqu:
Nice photo. Appears to be an early Soviet 7 scroll arms
award banner, as front side only contains "Workers of the
World Unite" national motto - no unit number & title showing.

OFW
(below) Soviet Union Arms with national motto expressed
in various ethnic languages on the arms wheat shaft scrolls.
Soviet Arms versions:
1 First version (1923-1936) ------> 7 scrolls, count includes one at bottom.
2 Second version (1936-1946) ---> 11 scrolls, but usually embroidered.
3 Third version (1946-1956) -----> 16 scrolls, Latvia, Estonia, etc., added.
4 Fourth version (1956-1991) ----> 15 scrolls, Finland SSR scroll removed.

(below) Scroll detail example...
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captured German RDF's ...
Old 01-08-2013, 03:49 AM   #59
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Default captured German RDF's ...

Some WW2 period photos of captured RDF's.
OFW

(below) US GI's (top left/right), UK Royal Navy, & UK Colonial troop captured (bottom left/right).
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captured swastika flag...
Old 01-10-2013, 03:10 AM   #60
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Default captured swastika flag...

Another WW2 period photo of a captured flag.
OFW

(below) WW2 German tank ID flag, US GI captured.
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