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Old 05-14-2019, 11:15 AM   #46
tystgaard
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Interesting- Patrick have a nose for finding
nice items.

BR
Nicolai
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:41 AM   #47
upbeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
Hi Norm

Wow! There it is! You are correct absolutely the same piece! I will try and get hold of a copy of the 1971 Klietmann book and see how it is referenced in that, unless anyone reading this thread has a copy?

The badge was obtained here in the UK, not from London but in 40 years it may have changed hands a few times.

Just regarding your earlier answer to Chay- Juncker was bombed out in Feb 1945 as far as I am aware which ended their wartime production, so the zinc badges must pre-date the bombing unless we suggest they are all post war produced?
Hi Patrick,
Thatís good you found the date Junker was damaged and it answers my question but did production end then ?
Do we have any evidence?
I suppose now we must try and work out when the zinc badges were made

Kind regards Chay
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:58 PM   #48
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upbeek View Post
Hi Patrick,
That’s good you found the date Junker was damaged and it answers my question but did production end then ?
Do we have any evidence?
I suppose now we must try and work out when the zinc badges were made

Kind regards Chay
Hi Chay,

Nothing's ever that simple.

Gentry's research at the U.S. National Archives in 2009 verified that the Juncker address at 13 Alte Jakobstrasse was totally destroyed on February 3, 1945 by American bombers:
https://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/...29#post3492029

However, we don't know what damage or at least bombing pressures Juncker incurred with the British bombing raids prior to that date. And because of these earlier pressures it's quite possible they had already diversified to other addresses prior to February, 1945.

In 2016 Andreas Klein posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Klein View Post
Prominent example for outsourcing the own factory:

We all know that Juncker was bombed out 1944 and we all believed so far that this stopped Juncker to be active. At our last visit in Berlin we found documents after the bombing in which Juncker is mentioned as firm which did a rebirth after all the problems and is actually providing the Wehrmacht with the close combat clasp and the honour as good as before.
There have been no specifics posted about 1944 bombings and I don't know if Andreas has anything more detailed in his records but he further stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Klein View Post
... I'm quite sure that the mentioned re-birth of the destroyed Juncker firm didn't took place in Berlin.

Although there are no specifics there, the point is that anything is possible in terms of off-site retooling for more production under the Juncker name. Certainly Juncker was up and running in Berlin by 1950 at the Lausitzer Str. 31 address...with what, if any, tooling leftover from wartime we don't know.

If we accept the Minesweepers of Brill and Palmgreen at face value, it would appear that Juncker produced a 1st pattern diamonds badge before May, 1944 (when Raeder wrote to Brill's family) and a 2nd pattern diamonds badge sometime after July, 1944 (when Palmgreen received his Oakleaves). Again IF we accept the anecdotal evidence of these two awards, then in between the two, something appears to have forced Juncker to develop a new die for both the zinc and diamonds Minesweeper badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

Last edited by Norm F; 05-14-2019 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:09 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Klein View Post
At our last visit in Berlin we found documents after the bombing in which Juncker is mentioned as firm which did a rebirth after all the problems and is actually providing the Wehrmacht with the close combat clasp and the honour as good as before.
More Juncker evidence for the unmarked striated badges (as illustrated in post #18). That quote of Andreas regarding the close combat clasp got me thinking so I went over to the Heer forum to browse postings of Juncker CCCs.

Lo and behold, this so-called "3rd pattern" zinc Juncker CCC shows similar parallel grooves on the obverse! Quite exciting really, to see a similar process like this on a Juncker marked award.

Best regards,
---Norm
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File Type: jpg left-detail.jpg (239.5 KB, 241 views)
File Type: jpg right-detail.jpg (235.0 KB, 244 views)
File Type: jpg CCCJUNCKER2-002.jpg (238.6 KB, 244 views)

Last edited by Norm F; 05-15-2019 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:17 AM   #50
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Good spot Norm! I also found som evidence of similar marks on the equally scarce J4 pilot- look at the swaz on this one- you find these same lines to greater or lesser extent on others also, part of the die as opposed to filing.
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"Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
I also found some evidence of similar marks on the equally scarce J4 pilot- look at the swaz on this one- you find these same lines to greater or lesser extent on others also, part of the die as opposed to filing.
Hi Patrick,

I really canít see anything convincing on that low resolution photo. If you can find a higher resolution closeup then perhaps we can see.

Best regards,
ó-Norm
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:12 AM   #52
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Hi Norm

Sorry don't have any better pictures and don't own a J4- maybe someone who has one can have a closer look at the swastika and detail and see if the spiral cutting is present.

I don't think it was mentioned as such in the thread but the last pattern Juncker U-boat also has this clear spiral detail to the die cut
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Best regards, Patrick

"Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
I don't think it was mentioned as such in the thread but the last pattern Juncker U-boat also has this clear spiral detail to the die cut
Excellent confirmation. Great consistency as a sign for late wartime Juncker production.

So a "working theory" is that these concentric grooves are seen on dies produced after bombing and/or wear had eliminated earlier working dies.

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 05-22-2019, 04:29 PM   #54
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Itís fascinating,
Juncker must have had some form of robotic Pantograph!

Kind regards Chay
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:11 AM   #55
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Hereís my zinc Juncker uboat itís from a completely different die , has no striations but is a match mostly,

Kind regards Chay
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File Type: jpeg 7B404D4E-C47F-48C4-97D9-6731E3D1CC5B.jpeg (194.9 KB, 176 views)
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:06 AM   #56
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Hi Chay

Well that one should be from the same die- note the missing laurel leaf tip above the rear section which indicates this as the last die pattern. The pictures are a bit out of focus- can you have a look with a loupe and see if any trace of the striations in the same areas as on mine?

If they aren't there then we have a further puzzle and maybe a pre bombing and post bombing last pattern die!
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"Rein muss er" und wenn wir beide weinen! - Personal inscription of Oblt Klaus Faber, JV44 Papagei Staffel
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:43 AM   #57
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Hi Patrick,
No striations, this is the best I can do,
I only have an iPad camera but you can see ,
Il add it has the pin scrape I never thought to check

Kind regards Chay
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:45 AM   #58
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Another thing to add the pin is not magnetic
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:53 AM   #59
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Mystifying! Two zinc U-Boats, ostensibly the same variant, but with slightly different main pins and only one has the concentric striations.

Obviously two different production runs at least given the different pins, but the question is are they from two different production dies (one with striations) or are they from the same production die and there was some difference in how they were produced in terms of the pressure used and heating of the zinc planchet?

IF these striations are on the master die coming out of the reducing machine, perhaps going through the process of making a hub and production dies with hand finishing between steps can remove the striations by the time you get to the end product, and perhaps they were taking less care in eliminating those striations as time went on?

Regardless, so far we've seen these obverse symmetrical concentric striations only on Juncker or Juncker-like later production pieces and none that are early wartime.

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---Norm
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Old 05-24-2019, 01:51 PM   #60
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One of the most interesting threads I have seen in a long time. The rebirth of Juncker after the bombing makes one wonder if they made stuff after the war. Thanks for a great thread guys!
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