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Old 03-11-2012, 11:17 AM   #31
clint-magnum
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Hello Gents ,
For my part , not easy to say who produced the 6 cell but for sure they
are VERY early wwII produced (maybe 1938-1939...?) . The pics prove that
they do exist . Mine came uncleaned from a house in Poland .
(just my 2 cents )
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:19 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Zahn View Post
Surely, you can't believe that in this day and age of collecting. Maybe up in Norway (with all due respect). What about all of the '43 and '44 dated 3-cell and 6-cell MP40 pouches?
What about the 43 and 44 dated pouches?
I stated that there are VERY few pouches that are OLDER than 1941. I have seen just a few with 1940 dates and none with 1938 or 1939 dates. It stands to reason that the supply system can't always balance the introduction of a new weapon with matching pouches. See how many pictures you can find of MP44 equipped soldiers that actually carries a pair of pouches! There are very few.
Ersatz production to battle the need for officially manufactured products is not unheard of. Field made rucksacks, and camouflage tunics to mention a few.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:41 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Zahn View Post
In your opinion it is beyond doubt. Not in mine. I don't agree with the logic. Mixing apples and oranges when it is convenient, and ignoring it when it doesn't fit.
Ok, could you be more precise?

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Originally Posted by Willi Zahn View Post
When did the Germans capture US webbing? We are seeing early photos of the use of the single strap pouches. Are the straps in the early photos US webbing?
Impossible to say if they are US Webbing for sure, but that is beside the point actually. The pictures clearly show that the web straps are ammunition belts of a non-German type. The German captured a lot of British, Belgian, French, Dutch, Polish, Cz, Austrian etc equipment. Which of these nations had which type of MG I am unable to tell you. Maybe some had the M1919A4, maybe some made similar belts for another type of MG. But the re-use of the straps seems to be well enough documented, unless you are leaning toward the fact that all of the paratrooper pictures are staged and faked as well.

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Originally Posted by Willi Zahn View Post
Is sloppy sewing and leather something we see on early German field gear?
Not at all. I am familiar with the materials used and the quality of the craftmanship, as well as the manufacturing techniques one can expect to find on all dates of this stuff. And I am not stating that these pouches are WW2 German factory made. I am of the opinion that they have been hastily made by a arsenal or unit taylor, or even in a local factory in a occupied country without the quality control of the WaA inspectors.
This is not "early German field gear", these are ersatz products that doesn't comply to what we are used to see.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergflak View Post
And even more interesting; your post of 05-10-2011, 01:10 AM in the other thread you seem to approve of them, while they are now no good!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Zahn
Interesting information Roger! Nice work and thanks for psoting all the photos.

But, how do we know the earlier ones were not also intended for armored crews?

I like some of the pouches on that thread, but not all. Those words above do not state which ones I liked. At the time I had no strong opinion on any of them. After seeing your 3-cell, and a 6-cell just like it, I don't like them. That doesn't apply to the other early 6-cell pouches, based on those photos.
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:10 PM   #35
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these straps came out of original german army ammo wooden crates..
there is another threat here..the "waffenentgiftungmittel" is the title...go to
post #5# by the member GRAN SASSO and you will see in his picture
german crates with those white handles
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:59 AM   #36
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PLease Give the exact link... I didn t manage to find it
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:54 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOTHRINGEN View Post
PLease Give the exact link... I didn t manage to find it
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=471970
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorgios View Post
thanks for the link .
but from this pic , I would say those crates have not the same kind of straps .
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:07 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clint-magnum View Post
thanks for the link .
but from this pic , I would say those crates have not the same kind of straps .
why that has to be 100% the same?
the german army had only one version of
those white straps? come on...
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:28 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Zahn View Post
I like some of the pouches on that thread, but not all. Those words above do not state which ones I liked. At the time I had no strong opinion on any of them. After seeing your 3-cell, and a 6-cell just like it, I don't like them. That doesn't apply to the other early 6-cell pouches, based on those photos.
Well, everybody is entitled to an opinion. I much prefer those that can teach me something new or shed some light on a subject. "I don't like it" is a dead-end to conversation and new knowledge. The 3 cell pouch and at least 3 of the 6-cell pouches share some very unique features to their rear side, while at the same time they differ in materials. If they were not all manufactured for the WH I really wonder who could have made them and used them identical with the rest of the shown pouches. If they are postwar surplus, how come they are made with the same unique identifying features? The periode photos clearly show the sloppy sewing of edges and the closing leather tab, so there is no reason to doubt their very existence. And how did they end up spread around most of Europe.
Don't get me wrong; I don't fancy any of them, as they are "non-official issue" in my eyes. But there are just too many coincidences, pictures and unanswered questions to write them off.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:44 PM   #41
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Ditto that Bergflak!

Thanks for showing the pouch that opened this interesting thread.

I see the similarity between the crude 6-cells and your pouch, and I would not mind having it in my collection at all as a rare, unusual bird.

Regards Sonnenwende
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:32 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergflak View Post
Well, everybody is entitled to an opinion. I much prefer those that can teach me something new or shed some light on a subject. "I don't like it" is a dead-end to conversation and new knowledge. The 3 cell pouch and at least 3 of the 6-cell pouches share some very unique features to their rear side, while at the same time they differ in materials. If they were not all manufactured for the WH I really wonder who could have made them and used them identical with the rest of the shown pouches. If they are postwar surplus, how come they are made with the same unique identifying features? The periode photos clearly show the sloppy sewing of edges and the closing leather tab, so there is no reason to doubt their very existence. And how did they end up spread around most of Europe.
Don't get me wrong; I don't fancy any of them, as they are "non-official issue" in my eyes. But there are just too many coincidences, pictures and unanswered questions to write them off.
I agree with much of what you just said. Honestly, I am rethinking my views on these as I have seen some more photos, seen more of the same features, and had a few discussions with others.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:34 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorgios View Post
these straps came out of original german army ammo wooden crates..
there is another threat here..the "waffenentgiftungmittel" is the title...go to
post #5# by the member GRAN SASSO and you will see in his picture
german crates with those white handles
I have some empty 8mm 1500-round crates with handles as well. Haven't looked at them in a while, but I will try to dig them out and take a look.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:21 AM   #44
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Hi Willi,
the straps on the pouches are definately not german Ammo-crate straps:

http://wehrmachts.kisten.free.fr/patronenkast88.htm

those have a different weave and have red stripes.

There is not doubt, if you look at them closely, that the pouch straps are made of MG cloth bands of some kind, on some of the posted pictures you can see where the cartridges would fit.

Regards Sonnenwende

Last edited by Sonnenwende; 03-15-2012 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:48 PM   #45
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An utterly interesting thread. MP40 seems to be more a science than MP44....
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