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Old 03-11-2012, 09:21 AM   #16
Sonnenwende
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Sure is an interesting topic. We know from Photos that 6-cell pouches with one closing strap and without the cross-strap to hold it existed and were worn. The problem is that we cannot see the back of the pouches from the Photos.

It might help if some of the collectors with Photos of the 6-cell pouches could make a closeup of the stiching on the closing strap. It would be interesting to see if it was more like the style on the standard MP40 pouches or just as sloppily done as on the riveted 6-cell pouches.

Has anyone got a one strap 6-cell pouch with another construction than the ones with the rivets?

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Old 03-11-2012, 09:25 AM   #17
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Well spotted Lothring! I will return to the comparison of pouches later.

Yes, the support strap above IS in fact for the early war ersatz pouch for 6 MP40 pouches. I would have asumed that the pouch held by Lothring was late war, but pictorial evidence suggest that this type of pouch is in fact a early war product. Most likely because the contractors were unable to deliver pouches as quick as the weapons arrived, production must have been undertaken by the army/LW arsenals either by their own Schneider or by local manufacturers. And yes. None of these pouches are up to what we deem as "German standards".

The picture below show the same support strap on a 6-cell pouch, of non-standard production. Note that it has the same strap-hardware as the one in the picture of the SS-officer. And this time the stripes are more clearly visible.
I am not able to show the full picture, but the rest of it show details dating the picture to late 1940/ early 1941. Note that the soldier with the pouch is carrying a very long Belgian M28 bayonet, so he was not first in line when "new equipment" was handed out!



Most will agree that the hardware is the same, and that there is a visible black line on both. So out of the pictorial evidence so far it is fair to assume that a cloth strap with a black stripe has existed in use as the carrying strap for the 6-cell pouch.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:34 AM   #18
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Sinse this picture has allready been posted by clint-magnum in another thread I take the liberty of reposting it here.

Note that the pouch has the same carrying strap as discussed above. Compare the friction buckle with the one at the SS-officers neck! Unfortunately, we are unable to see the clip buckles on this picture, but I highly suspect they will be of the civilian type we can see in the two periode pictures I have posted. There is no doubt that the sling in fact is a MG ammunition band.
Also note the sloppy sewing of the closing strap and the fact that the leather strap is a reused strap for a pin-buckle.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:35 AM   #19
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Is it possible to see a closeup of the stitching on the top of that pouch closing strap in the first Photo (the one where the Soldier has turned his back to the camera) Bergflak?

Regards Sonnenwende

Last edited by Sonnenwende; 03-11-2012 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:44 AM   #20
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This is the best I can do.

And yes, it is very much like the others pictured. Sloppy sewing and sloppy cut leather.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:51 AM   #21
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Thanks. Well from the evidence so far shown, it sure looks like the pouches (both your 3 cell) and the 6-cells presented are all WW2 made - and in a hurry!

Have you got any history on your 3-cell?

Regards Sonnenwende
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:56 AM   #22
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IMO, strap used on my 6 mag pouch is from US MG belt fabric,
and this kind of pouch is an early version and quite hard to find smile wink

here are few pics of the reverse ... i already shared them and my point of view with Mr ROGER (CLINT MAGNUM) !
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:57 AM   #23
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More
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:12 AM   #24
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Here is a comparison of the pouches allready posted both here and in the other thread. Both the use of MG ammo-belts, the strange rivets and the very sloppy sewing of the belt loops are identical on these pouches. Lothrings pouch seems to have been treated better by the manufacturer, as the straps are sewn on much nicer.
Seems to be beyound doubt that:
1. These pouches existed early in the war
2. They do not confirm to standard German production, but have seen widespread use by German troops
3. Both 3 cell and 6 cell pouches were made by the same manufacturer
4. They are made from captured materials. The MG-bands of course, but also the leather and possibly some of the canvas is non-German.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:25 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnenwende View Post
Thanks. Well from the evidence so far shown, it sure looks like the pouches (both your 3 cell) and the 6-cells presented are all WW2 made - and in a hurry!

Have you got any history on your 3-cell?

Regards Sonnenwende
The 3 cell pouch was found in a cardboard box containg approx 99 original German WW2 made MP40 pouches. (15 years ago, none left, don't ask!) The box came from the Norwegian army, so my first thought was that the pouch was a Norwegian arsenal product, but I have never seen any like it up here. Then I found the picture of the soldier with his back to the camera, and I remembered the WSS officer with the strange pouch, and then stumbled upon the 6-pouch cell thread. I was certain that the pouch was a postwar product when I got it, but I am now firm in the belief that it was made as a replacement/ersatz pouch in occupied western Europe in 1940/1941. (Which makes sense, of all the MP40 pouches I have owned and seen very few are older than 1941!)
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:25 AM   #26
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In your opinion it is beyond doubt. Not in mine. I don't agree with the logic. Mixing apples and oranges when it is convenient, and ignoring it when it doesn't fit.

When did the Germans capture US webbing? We are seeing early photos of the use of the single strap pouches. Are the straps in the early photos US webbing?

Is sloppy sewing and leather something we see on early German field gear?
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:36 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergflak View Post
(Which makes sense, of all the MP40 pouches I have owned and seen very few are older than 1941!)
Surely, you can't believe that in this day and age of collecting. Maybe up in Norway (with all due respect). What about all of the '43 and '44 dated 3-cell and 6-cell MP40 pouches?
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:38 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergflak View Post
The 3 cell pouch was found in a cardboard box containg approx 99 original German WW2 made MP40 pouches. (15 years ago, none left, don't ask!) The box came from the Norwegian army, so my first thought was that the pouch was a Norwegian arsenal product, but I have never seen any like it up here.
Why couldn't the box have contained both Norwegian used German WWII pouches and those made after the war, of a similiar pattern (which we know was done), for use by the Norwegian military/ police?

Actually IMO, the comments and items here strengthen my belief that these pouches (with the US ammo belt webbing, rivets, and sloppy construction) are postwar Norwegian made and used items.
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Last edited by Willi Zahn; 03-11-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:07 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Zahn View Post
Why couldn't the box have contained both Norwegian used German WWII pouches and those made after the war, of a similiar pattern (which we know was done), for use by the Norwegian military/ police?

Actually IMO, the comments and items here strengthen my belief that these pouches (with the US ammo belt webbing, rivets, and sloppy construction) are postwar Norwegian made and used items.
Reread the post you are reffering to. I actually was CONVINCED that the pouch in question was just that; a Norwegian postwar made pouch. And strangely enough, if it was indeed Norwegian we would have seen plenty of them, but we don't. Not even a single 6-cell pouch....

And even more interesting; your post of 05-10-2011, 01:10 AM in the other thread you seem to approve of them, while they are now no good!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Zahn View Post
Interesting information Roger! Nice work and thanks for psoting all the photos.

But, how do we know the earlier ones were not also intended for armored crews?
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:15 AM   #30
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Well, are we sure these straps on the back are made from american WW1/2 ammo belts?

Other armies used machine guns with similar cartridge cloth belts, including the polish army in 1939 (Ckm wz.30 = Browning M1917 machine gun clone)... The could have been captured there? The Norwegian army used the Colt M/29 clone of the M1917 in 1940. Both weapons in different calibers from the US-version, but it still does not rule out that the germans captured the belts there. I don´t know myself, but in even if they are american belts, in principle both armies/others could have used them for their machine guns.

Regards Sonnenwende

Last edited by Sonnenwende; 03-11-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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