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Old 09-24-2015, 08:47 AM   #31
Willi Z.
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Interesting discussion. I only saw this Panther for the 1st time in 2012 with Gran Sasso and some others. While I generally agree armor should be restored and preserved in a museum, there is something special about seeing such a tank on the battlefield where it fought.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:53 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Z. View Post
Interesting discussion. I only saw this Panther for the 1st time in 2012 with Gran Sasso and some others. While I generally agree armor should be restored and preserved in a museum, there is something special about seeing such a tank on the battlefield where it fought.
Thanks for your message Willi. I'll post some photos of the Panther G from Houffalize (Also Battle of The Bulge).

Cheers

Jan
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:00 PM   #33
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Hi Jan, I saw that one as well. Much worse condition.
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:34 PM   #34
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This Panther is an Ausf G from the 116 "Windhund" Panzerdivision. This one crashed in the river Ourthe at Houffalize. The date is unknown but there are 3 theories

- Crashed in the river Ourthe on December 19 1944, 3 days after the start of the German attack
- The tank stood on the bridge over the river Ourthe on December 26 1944 and crashed into the river after an American bombardment
- Crashed into the river Ourthe on January 15 1945 a day before the counterattack of the 2nd and 9th US Armored Divisions

For sure is that the tank was recovered by the Belgian Army in 1948

3 names have been on the tank for years and it is believed they were 3 of the 5 crew members:

- Arne Kreutz
- Georg Mussbach
- Ewald Lochle
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:35 PM   #35
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:37 PM   #36
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:38 PM   #37
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Old 09-24-2015, 02:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Z. View Post
Hi Jan, I saw that one as well. Much worse condition.
Willi,

Yes this one is in a bad condition. Rear deck plates are missing, exhaustpipes, suspension arms, wheels,...
There is still another one in Celles and that one is in even a worse condition...
They need a in depth maintenance and repair
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Old 09-24-2015, 02:59 PM   #39
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Really why would they want to kill them selfs in the tank?
Where is this located?
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Old 09-24-2015, 03:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcross13 View Post
Really why would they want to kill them selfs in the tank?
Where is this located?


In Houffalize Belgium.

Of course they didn't kill themselves. They were killed when the tank turned over in the river. There are different reports about the crew. Some say the bodies were only gotten out of the tank when the Belgian Army recovered the vehicle in 1948
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Old 09-24-2015, 03:54 PM   #41
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I think the "kill themselves" question relates to the modern suicide attempt(s) in the Panther that started this thread . . . as to an answer . . . . . is it even reasonable to expect to have an "answer" as to why a suicidal person takes specific actions? Possibly one or more of the suicidal persons had visited the tank as youths, so they wanted to end things in a place where they had nice memories? One of the persons survived, so perhaps he can answer the question.
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:15 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smith View Post
I think the "kill themselves" question relates to the modern suicide attempt(s) in the Panther that started this thread . . . as to an answer . . . . . is it even reasonable to expect to have an "answer" as to why a suicidal person takes specific actions? Possibly one or more of the suicidal persons had visited the tank as youths, so they wanted to end things in a place where they had nice memories? One of the persons survived, so perhaps he can answer the question.
Their story is told in this book:

http://www.amazon.de/Jahre-sp%C3%A4t...tag=vebidoo-21
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:48 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smith View Post
I think the "kill themselves" question relates to the modern suicide attempt(s) in the Panther that started this thread . . . as to an answer . . . . . is it even reasonable to expect to have an "answer" as to why a suicidal person takes specific actions? Possibly one or more of the suicidal persons had visited the tank as youths, so they wanted to end things in a place where they had nice memories? One of the persons survived, so perhaps he can answer the question.
Ahh yeah just some random guys who did it, crazy they wanted to kill themselves.
as for the crew anyone know what happened?
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Old 09-25-2015, 02:32 PM   #44
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While it's always nice to see the tanks well-preserved indoors in a museum setting, I agree with Willi that there's something special about seeing them in the locations where they fought.

Tiger 213 of s. SS-Pz.Abt. 501 in La Gleize, Belgium, close to the spot where it was knocked out during the Battle of the Bulge fighting.

Best,
Greg
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Old 09-26-2015, 05:10 AM   #45
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Some other photos of the Tiger II (took them myself)
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