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Crosses of the Wehrmacht Iron Cross, German Cross, War Merit Cross and Spain Cross.

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Old 11-20-2019, 10:20 PM   #46
all1knew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erickn View Post
Hi William,

FI too would like to learn the details regarding the OL, OLS.

Kind regards,
E.
page 233, "Prussian and German Iron Cross", V.E.Bowen, 1st Edition

"Example 1 - Illustrations of the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords from the collection of the Imperial War Museum, London.

The decoration illustrated was deposited with the Imperial War Museum in 1946 along with a number of other items. The records indicate that the collection came to the museum via The War Office."

(The illustrations appeared on page 235 of this edition)


Originally posted by 90th Light. To sum up what Bowen goes on to say:

- KC, extremely good quality, no makers marks or silver marks

- Oak leaves and swords, heavy silver froasted finish with burnished ribs & edges. The reverse is level (not slightly concave), highly polished finish without maker or silver marks.

"The swords are of standard construction, ornamented on both obverse and reverse sides and are soldered to the oak leaves".

Bowen then goes on to say that "although unable to dogmatically affirm it" that his belief is this set is one of the manufacturers "specimen display piece"


basically, what's being described is exactly what I have here in front of me. Does anyone have a digital image to share of the Schickle Knights Cross with Deumer oakleaves held at the Imperial War Museum in London?

Additionally, Richard Gordon some time ago posted photos here on the forum which have since disappeared however the text reads:
Schickle RK, with Oakleaves, from the Shropshire Light Infantry Museum, on a Deumer card, brought back by a General from that unit. The oakleaves attached to that Schickle appear to match the style Oakleaves used on the German Order, which was also (according to those who are familiar with it - not my personal field) made by Deumer. I believe all this has been discussed in various places for years.

this set in the Shropshire Light Infantry Museum is mounted on a Deumer card.



William Kramer
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File Type: jpg KSLI museum RK_ Oaks 003.jpg (72.5 KB, 386 views)

Last edited by all1knew; 11-20-2019 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:26 PM   #47
90th Light
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all1knew View Post
Weitze had one a while back (and may still)

Was predominantly S&L but with a few Assman pieces mixed in. If it was a "salesman's display" why on earth would S&L be carting around Assman products such as the flak badge "to sell" when they themselves produced a flak badge?

Minor differences in the exterior master case color (black vs. blue) to mine but overall the construction is nearly identical.

It doesn't really make sense that this is a salesman's display per say as there are numerous makers presented here. Considering the RK and DK weren't allowed for commercial sale after 1944 you wouldn't think a salesman would be running around with them as a salesman's display.

Additionally, I believe there was a theory previously that these oak sets are only silver-plated. When you take that into account, and the fact the Schickles do not have a silver frame, and the Knights Cross of the War Merit Crosses are zinc, this probably was a display but for another purpose. For some reason, it appears the zinc RK Des KvK's were purposefully produced NOT in a precious metal (silver, like the normal awarded types) and the Schickle RK's may have been reserved for this purpose as well after they ceased to exist after 1941. Did makers produce awards for the sole purpose of display and never intended certain pieces to be awarded types? It would almost seem logical.

To say this is a giant postwar mockup is problematic for me as why go to the extent to produce this master case? It is made of similar leatherette exterior and velvet-like interior as seen on some Luftwaffe badge cases. With the war being over would somebody have gone to all that trouble? If not, then this likely had a wartime purpose and is has been suggested this may have been somewhat of a patriotic museum display of some sort.

William Kramer
V.E.Bowen in his book "The Prussian and German Iron Cross" discussed this type of Oakleaves and swords which William has posted in post number 46 from a previous thread on the subject.

His mentioned of display lounge examples for the public is worth noting.

Also the back of my oakleaves and swords is flat with mirror polishing but the ends of the hanger have been rounded and nicely finished off after cutting,

Chris
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg del113.jpg (141.0 KB, 393 views)
File Type: jpg del107.jpg (114.2 KB, 395 views)

Last edited by 90th Light; 11-20-2019 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:30 PM   #48
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Chris,

Can you please post a good straight on front and back shot of your pair? Here are some decent photos I found while searching of some Oaks without swords.

and also interestingly enough is a Schickle RK w/ Deumer oaks posted on Regimentals out of England some time ago.

William Kramer
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File Type: jpg deumerwilliamson2.jpg (81.7 KB, 389 views)
File Type: jpg deumerwilliamsom.jpg (61.8 KB, 382 views)
File Type: jpg 52794b.jpg (27.7 KB, 381 views)
File Type: jpg 52794c.jpg (30.9 KB, 386 views)

Last edited by all1knew; 11-20-2019 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:44 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all1knew View Post
Chris,

Can you please post a good straight on front and back shot of your pair? Here are some decent photos I found while searching of some Oaks without swords.

and also interestingly enough is a Schickle RK w/ Deumer oaks posted on Regimentals out of England some time ago.

William Kramer
I only have the Oakleaves and swords William,

It is interesting that my example has the double loop at the bottom where it passes through the KC. If you look at the black and white image of the "Example 1" (Imperial War Museum) from the the V.E.Bowen book that I posted in post number 47, it also appears to have the double loop at the bottom passing through the KC. I am at a loss to explain why Deumer have made them that way. Could they be an early production by Deumer which was later corrected to be in line with how other makers were applying the loop ?

Chris
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg del106.jpg (111.1 KB, 386 views)
File Type: jpg del114.jpg (153.9 KB, 391 views)

Last edited by 90th Light; 11-20-2019 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:28 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank C. View Post
So who put this together? When? Why? All the descriptions are in English...

I'm not debating originality. Just wondering who went to all this trouble to create an English-language display collection.

best
H
and that's the million dollar question behind all of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90th Light View Post
V.E.Bowen in his book "The Prussian and German Iron Cross"

His mentioned of display lounge examples for the public is worth noting.

Chris
what if when originally found, it was a patriotic museum piece for the German public. So that they could see the decorations of the Wehrmacht?

or maybe it was something entirely different. Not that Schloss Klessheim was identical to Lüdenscheid but it was known that the decorations found at SK were put out on display for visiting Allied Generals and military personnel. This was of course after the American 3rd ID took control of things, but perhaps it was something like this.

Look at how it's all spelled out and labeled. To me, it's like a rough translation by somebody who didn't know exactly what these things were. Look at the description of the Luftwaffe bomber clasp. Surely, if this were a salesman's display or a barter board souvenir piece and a German employee of Deumer (who's sole purpose was to know these awards inside and out) did the little name plates, they would have correctly identified a bomber clasp, and not just basically tried to translate and identify an unknown decoration as

"Air Force Clasp 3rd"

That's how the plaque reads. I've attached photos below of this and other anomalies.

As far as I know, it's the Germans that use a "K" for Krimean on their Krim shield and yet we have the English spelling with a "C"

"Crimea shield"

and once again if it were a German company employee, you'd think they would know the difference between a Luftwaffe and Heer paratrooper badge, wouldn't you?

Both are basically labeled the same:

"Parachuter troopers badge"

The E-Boat? Described as:

"Fast motor badge" and to me that sounds like a lost in translation type deal.

Kriegsmarine Coastal Artillery war badge?

"Fleet artillery badge"

The Narvik campaign shield. Once again, we have the English spelling of Narvik:

"Narvic shield"

it's anyone's guess why this is the way it is. I can only speculate and make drastic guesses as to why these name plates are in English. Maybe the top brass wanted to show it is off and had his translator type it up and identify the pieces for viewing by other allied leaders (similar to what the Americans did at SK)

Maybe a British General took it as a trophy and simply just wanted to know what everything was and had it appropriately labeled.

Maybe all of that is wrong.

Dietrich made a great point; it's odd that there's just enough room to put these little placards in place. But if you look at the only two similar displays like this that we know of (the Weitze example and the Summer Vacation Militaria piece) these show a lot of lower-end decorations mixed in. Maybe my case originally had those pieces and they were simply discarded to make room for the plaques and to showcase the higher end badges and awards. Maybe not at all but let's admit, the other two black cases certainly have a lot of lower end things mixed in there and my case almost appears as it's had higher end pieces added when compared to those, perhaps it was on purpose. Either way you look at it, we can certainly agree my presentation is much more of a deluxe version that the others.

Only speculating further and putting out other ideas, but maybe it's simple enough that the Vet was bored one night after the war and just decided to do it.

I CANNOT explain why pieces are sewn-in whereas the other black cased displays don't have anything like that.

It's anyone's guess and (as is the case with a lot of material in this hobby) until we have the capability of time travel... all we can really do is guess.

I understand I'm biased as I'm the owner of this case, but in my opinion it would be VERY ODD if a German translator changed their own way of spelling certain things to accommodate English speaking Allies and that's just not something a person would naturally do. I believe the plaques were made by an English-speaking person.

once again, it's anyone's guess.

William Kramer





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Last edited by all1knew; 11-20-2019 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:00 AM   #51
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William
Thank you for the info and fotos of the OL and OLS . interesting
The mirror like polishing on the reverse. congratulations on this fantastic find.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:34 AM   #52
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I had a stab at these and wondered where they ended up.
Good catch
Best - Greg
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Old 11-21-2019, 02:57 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all1knew View Post
Weitze had one a while back (and may still)
That one originated from England as well.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:11 PM   #54
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you are so lucky !!!!
and they are early stuff, very quality !
i always feel KM badges are ugly, but from these mint early badges,
i will change my mind.
thanks for sharing !
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all1knew View Post
and that's the million dollar question behind all of this.


...edit....

once again, it's anyone's guess.

William Kramer




Thanks for that William. Your guess/hypothesis is as good as any.

best
H
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:41 PM   #56
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Well done William

Douglas
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Old 11-24-2019, 08:40 PM   #57
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I'm updating this thread with a picture that was presumably purposefully omitted in an effort to hide some of the truth on these badges. It has now cast a shadow on the entire find and the motive of the OP.

We spend so much time trying to help and this gives the feeling of being cheated somewhat.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Bologna View Post
I'm updating this thread with a picture that was presumably purposefully omitted in an effort to hide some of the truth on these badges. It has now cast a shadow on the entire find and the motive of the OP.

We spend so much time trying to help and this gives the feeling of being cheated somewhat.

Tony, lets keep the discussion on the items in the case, and leave personal assaults out of it. William has been very upfront and accommodating on posting any and all pictures that have been requested of him. The basis of this thread is on the Kriegsmarine badges, so I suspect that is why he hasn't posted pics of the reverse of all other badges. I don't think he is hiding anything, and on the contrary he has done an excellent job of posting good pictures of all badges that were requested.

Keep the discussion on the items please.

Thanks

Tom
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