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Old 09-13-2019, 07:52 AM   #16
djpool
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It doesn't matter to me. I buy uniforms based on authenticity, personal appeal, affordability and sometimes size. So my tunics range from never issued to used but not abused. Jim
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:50 PM   #17
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As far as field tunics, I pursue (and have in my collection) a mixture of minty examples but also some that show strong honest use. With parade or piped walking out tunics they need to be in excellent shape because that is how they would have been owned and maintained and any significant damage or heavy wear/soiling doesn't match the correct presentation of such a tunic.

I like the tunics that show honest use because a guy actually wore it. The tunic was a witness to history versus sitting in a wall locket or closet or depot. I have some extremely lightly used ones that were probably "best" tunics for home front wear, but they have clear signs of being owned by a soldier due to small modifications, etc. that only someone who had to wear the garment would make. Those little personal touches are cool. I also have a few heavily used field tunics and love them because the soldier "lived in it".

I think the discussion gets a little heated because those of us who appreciate heavily worn field tunics generally know what we are talking about when we say "honest use" and resent it when the "mint stuff only" crowd tries to conflate honest use with post-war abuse or damage. When we say we like salty tunics, we are not talking about moth or rodent damage, fakers or idiots performing post-war modifications, or some ham handed collector spilling his cup of coffee on it in 1985.

The abuse of the descriptive word "salty" contributes to the miscommunication. Salty to us means signs of honest use. Too many sellers or dealers use "salty" when describing crap that has been post-war abused through poor storage or acts of idiocy or dishonesty. I look at those items and think "Dude, that's not salty. That's messed with!" (or negelected, or clearly worn to snot post-war, etc.)

Just my $.02 FWIW.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:00 PM   #18
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1+ nothing more to add to this

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Originally Posted by TWS View Post
As far as field tunics, I pursue (and have in my collection) a mixture of minty examples but also some that show strong honest use. With parade or piped walking out tunics they need to be in excellent shape because that is how they would have been owned and maintained and any significant damage or heavy wear/soiling doesn't match the correct presentation of such a tunic.

I like the tunics that show honest use because a guy actually wore it. The tunic was a witness to history versus sitting in a wall locket or closet or depot. I have some extremely lightly used ones that were probably "best" tunics for home front wear, but they have clear signs of being owned by a soldier due to small modifications, etc. that only someone who had to wear the garment would make. Those little personal touches are cool. I also have a few heavily used field tunics and love them because the solider "lived in it".

I think the discussion gets a little hated because those of us who appreciate heavily worn field tunics generally know what we are talking about when we say "honest use" and resent it when the "mint stuff only" crowd tries to conflate honest use with post-war abuse or damage. When we say we like salty tunics, we are not talking about moth or rodent damage, fakers or idiots performing post-war modifications, or some ham handed collector spilling his cup of coffee on it in 1985.

The abuse of the descriptive word "salty" contributes to the miscommunication. Salty to us means signs of honest use. Too many sellers or dealers use "salty" when describing crap that has been post-war abused through poor storage or acts of idiocy or dishonesty. I look at those items and think "Dude, that's not salty. That's messed with!" (or negelected, or clearly worn to snot post-war, etc.)

Just my $.02 FWIW.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:27 PM   #19
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There are something called Nametags. 90% of my Tunics have it, and then you know if it saw Combat or not. And there is no History associated with any Piece, as long as you are not able to tell it. What i have from the nicest Tunic when you don't know nothing about it? A Piece of Cloth, not much more. Same goes for Medals or anything else. Just my Opinion, but i want to know who owned it and what was the History behind my Items. A Tunic what comes out of a Depo and is unworn? Whats the History of that? The Tailor sew it together?
Your logic truly escapes me. Since most surviving militaria isn’t named - let alone most surviving uniforms - what are you saying to the thousands of collectors about the hundreds of thousands of items that they collect? There is no history to the items without a name tag present?

II’ll let you try and defend that untenable argument.

J-
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:35 PM   #20
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Would say there are three types not two. Unissued, wartime worn and combat worn tunics. Most of us prefer the later two types. But actual combat tunics are few and far behind. Can only speak about tropical tunics. Have only seen a handful of DAK combat tunics over the years. You know the ones i'm talking about that have spent some time down on the ground...
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:48 PM   #21
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Maybe in your World it is like that, in mine it is a bit different. As i already wrote, almost every Tunic i own, is named or if not named i can say who was wearing it. Same for most other Items. That is how i collect and that is what for me makes this Hobby interesting. And its new to me that i should defent how i collect, no reason in that. If someone is happy with a Medal without to know the Owner, or with a Tunic or whatever without a Name, then i have absolut no Problem with that. But I am not, and never will be. I spent countless Hours to research Items, i want to know what the Guy did in the War, where he was fighting for what he got his Awards. I had the Pleasure to talk to a lot lot of Vets when they where still alive, and hear there Storys, and with that a Group of Awards or a Tunic has real Value and that is to me the Reason why i do this. I would have zero from going to buy a KC, and don't know who got it and for what. Without that it would be just a 20 Reichsmark piece of Metal. So, enjoy your Way, i enjoy mine. To tell me my arguments are untenable is if anything funny but nothing more

Little Example, i bought 2 Years ago a part from a KC Group. Then i start my Research, visit the Family from that Guy, got some more Items, with Luck i found a Dealer and 2 Collectors who sold some other Things from him. I spent more then double what it would cost to buy each Item seperate without any Background. But now, 2 years later i have the best KC Group you have ever seen, with all Awards, all Documents, 120 Letters, Pictures, his Tunic and a lot other Stuff as well. I know from his first day in the SA to his last day where he was killed in Russia what he did, where he was, for what he got his Awards. Without all this, i would have just a Group of Medals on my Wall, what look nice, but what would not give me anything, because i could go and buy them every day again and again.



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Originally Posted by JasonA View Post
Your logic truly escapes me. Since most surviving militaria isn’t named - let alone most surviving uniforms - what are you saying to the thousands of collectors about the hundreds of thousands of items that they collect? There is no history to the items without a name tag present?

II’ll let you try and defend that untenable argument.

J-
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:21 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post
Would say there are three types not two. Unissued, wartime worn and combat worn tunics. Most of us prefer the later two types. But actual combat tunics are few and far behind. Can only speak about tropical tunics. Have only seen a handful of DAK combat tunics over the years. You know the ones i'm talking about that have spent some time down on the ground...
I agree. I don't collect tropical. Mostly wool and a few HBT "summer" or "South Front", but it's the same principle.

IMO, relatively few tunics in collections today were actually worn at the front. Most tunics worn at the front were buried with the owners, cut off of a wounded soldier in a field hospital and thrown out, or worn to rags in a POW camp.

Yes, a small portion survived and I have a few that I strongly feel - although I don't know without a doubt, I wasn't there - could have been worn at the front due to heavy honest wear and old soiling with period attached insignia. How did they survive? I don't know for sure in each case but perhaps the soldier came home on leave from the front and thought "man my Feldbluse is getting a little ratty, let me try and draw a new one from the replacement unit before I get back on the troop train." And left his heavily used front tunic at home. Or maybe he was taken prisoner, and his captors did not require him to strip his insignia but was let go quickly before he wore the tunic to shreds in captivity. I know of many cases, particularly among the Western Allies, where Wehrmacht soldiers were released after the war after just a few weeks or months in a POW camp and period photos show that forced removal of insignia was very inconsistent, perhaps varying from camp to camp or somewhat dependent on which country's forces took them prisoner.


But.... still... most of my tunics, even my field tunics, I doubt were ever in a foxhole at the HKL.
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djpool View Post
It doesn't matter to me. I buy uniforms based on authenticity, personal appeal, affordability and sometimes size. So my tunics range from never issued to used but not abused. Jim
I agree with this statement.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:37 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AntiqueWW2 View Post
Maybe in your World it is like that, in mine it is a bit different. As i already wrote, almost every Tunic i own, is named or if not named i can say who was wearing it. Same for most other Items. That is how i collect and that is what for me makes this Hobby interesting. And its new to me that i should defent how i collect, no reason in that. If someone is happy with a Medal without to know the Owner, or with a Tunic or whatever without a Name, then i have absolut no Problem with that. But I am not, and never will be. I spent countless Hours to research Items, i want to know what the Guy did in the War, where he was fighting for what he got his Awards. I had the Pleasure to talk to a lot lot of Vets when they where still alive, and hear there Storys, and with that a Group of Awards or a Tunic has real Value and that is to me the Reason why i do this. I would have zero from going to buy a KC, and don't know who got it and for what. Without that it would be just a 20 Reichsmark piece of Metal. So, enjoy your Way, i enjoy mine. To tell me my arguments are untenable is if anything funny but nothing more

Little Example, i bought 2 Years ago a part from a KC Group. Then i start my Research, visit the Family from that Guy, got some more Items, with Luck i found a Dealer and 2 Collectors who sold some other Things from him. I spent more then double what it would cost to buy each Item seperate without any Background. But now, 2 years later i have the best KC Group you have ever seen, with all Awards, all Documents, 120 Letters, Pictures, his Tunic and a lot other Stuff as well. I know from his first day in the SA to his last day where he was killed in Russia what he did, where he was, for what he got his Awards. Without all this, i would have just a Group of Medals on my Wall, what look nice, but what would not give me anything, because i could go and buy them every day again and again.
What you choose to collect and why is irrelevant. What is relevant here - and what I’m pushing back on - is your claim that there’s no history to the many other aspects of collecting outside of a named piece; that without a name it’s just a piece of metal or cloth.

This is an extremely narrow view of the hobby and everything that went into the overall war machine, and what we now collect decades later. You choose to focus on named pieces, which is great. But that doesn’t negate the myriad aspects of history that come along with the endless aspects of this hobby. The funny part is that you’re feeling like you shouldn’t have to defend what and why you collect, yet your claim renders other specialties outside of yours almost impotent - less historical or not historical at all.

So yes, your argument is untenable. But I’m not going to fight with you about it. You’re welcome to respond here and have the last word.

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Old 09-14-2019, 12:48 PM   #25
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Absolute right, there is no History in an Item where you are unable to tell anything about it. I have a Knights Cross, i have no clue who got it or for what. So, for me there is no History, just a Medal. The History you only add when you are able to tell the Story behind the Item. And that is no narrow View of anything, that is just Fact. Why a German Dealer ask for a Grand Cross what was once worn by Goring 140K and for one what was just a Klessheim Find...35K? Same Cross, but one is worn by Goring other one is not. Why you pay for a Tunic from a well known General double the Price then for an unnamed one? hmmmmmmm i would say because the Histroy behind the named Item....and the big black hole behind something what is not named......

So if any Argument here is untenable, then yours. Everyone can collect how he want, and i really not care what someone else may think about how i collect. If others are happy to look at something but don't know anything about the Background, i am happy for them, and i am happy for anyone who like to research and know more about the Stuff they collect. And that is about all i have to say to this....and now you can have the last word or what ever you like to have

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Originally Posted by JasonA View Post
What you choose to collect and why is irrelevant. What is relevant here - and what I’m pushing back on - is your claim that there’s no history to the many other aspects of collecting outside of a named piece; that without a name it’s just a piece of metal or cloth.

This is an extremely narrow view of the hobby and everything that went into the overall war machine, and what we now collect decades later. You choose to focus on named pieces, which is great. But that doesn’t negate the myriad aspects of history that come along with the endless aspects of this hobby. The funny part is that you’re feeling like you shouldn’t have to defend what and why you collect, yet your claim renders other specialties outside of yours almost impotent - less historical or not historical at all.

So yes, your argument is untenable. But I’m not going to fight with you about it. You’re welcome to respond here and have the last word.

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Old 09-14-2019, 01:15 PM   #26
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I’m so glad I quit collecting coins and stamps decades ago. I’m learning now that there is no history in this sheeat, only metal and paper.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:23 PM   #27
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Then please be so nice and tell me what is the History behind a Knighs Cross for Example. One you don't know anything about it, just the Cross. All you can do is say i have a Knighs Cross, read out of a Book why for what someone could be awarded with it and then you are done. Or would it not be better to have one where you can say this is the Guy who was awarded with it, this is what he did to get it....that is History to me.

And to compare a Coin with an Award not really works, sorry.



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I’m so glad I quit collecting coins and stamps decades ago. I’m learning now that there is no history in this sheeat, only metal and paper.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:45 PM   #28
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What really does not work is, creating one's own reality (which in itself is ok, we all do that), then mating it with an "either-or" mentality (which to a certain degree is also ok, we all do it occasionally), but then confronting everyone else with it as if it was the ultimate truth... That does not work...

What is history? One could argue it is a great alibi for a lot of people to justify a lot of things (figuratively and literally), and collecting is one of them. It also gets confused with "story". Unless you write books about the great stories you must have heard and the great pieces you surely own... you do not really have history... just a number of stories you, and possibly only you, have heard and can connect to some items in you collection by the thin thread of one man's memory... What's going to happen when you, and all of us here, are gone, then, according to your own logic, all those things you have will suddenly become non-history, because all the stories and memories have seized to exist as well.

Turn this around, there is a great guy on this forum who does not collect! However, he has contributed a great deal to the hobby in general, to this forum in particular, and especially to the study of the RK!!! Now that is history;-) and he doesn't even own an RK, neither an anonymous nor an attributed one. Only for history preservation, it would arguably be perfectly sufficient to have a couple of representative specimen and books/ files. Voilà, history preserved...

Please don't get me wrong, you contribute a lot of good things, see the Oak discussion. Great contribution! It's not so much the content, it's your style that rubs some people the wrong way. Of course nobody in his right mind would disagree with you that the best scenario is to have an attributed piece with a story! But! ... there are so many ways to look at one and the same thing, and even more with different things. And of course is collecting coins and other stuff comparable to collecting awards, and other stuff;-)

Anyway, sorry if this came unsolicited, haven't written so much on the forum in years. Here is my contribution to the topic, a true field worn jacket (one of very few I ever had, alas no story...) and an almost unworn one. Love them both.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:13 PM   #29
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From your Point of View you are right, and i have not much to say against what you write. I can only repeat myself. I talk here only about the Way i collect, and how i see the Items i own. And if for someone History means to study an Item, well so it be. For me History, is the Story what comes along with an Item. If i am so wrong, then why there are this big Price Gaps between ITems what are attributed and items what are without any connection?! Often double and more. Only because of a Name.

I have to disagree that i have no History as long as i not write the Storys down. Because that is exactly what i did and do. I spent countless Hours with all kind of Vets over the Years. From a lot i got there Items, together with there Story and what the soldiers experienced during the war. I wrote them down, Vet after Vet. Some of them became close Friends over the Years. Sadly almost everyone is gone now, or will be gone very soon. And with them would be everything lost what they had to tell if i would not have wrote it down, took Pictures with them ect. I never sold one single Item i got from a Vet myself, and for no Money on that Planet i would do it. All is still here with me. When the Time will come and i will be selling my Collection, i will take very good care that the Items stay together with the Story, that others can read and maybe learn something from it. If that not works, i will gladly donate the Items to a Place what then will keep it that way. The Best Group i own will be next year published as Part of a Book about Heeresbergfuhrer, and on 20 Pages others can read then the Story about this Vet, from his Youth until he was killed in 1944.

I hope you can see that i am not sitting at home, with all the Stuff i have, and not want to share it with someone. I would be a real Jerk if thats the Case I have my Way of doing things, some like it others don't. I was never giving much on Opinions others have about me. I try to help when its possible. But one thing i always had in focus, to keep that Hobby alive, my Grandfather and all the Millions of other Soldiers deserve that there Story gets told the right way.

This is why i prefere to say an Item for me has only Value with a Story behind it, otherwise i see it only as a Piece of Metal or Cloth. That don't mean it has no Value or someone else can't enjoy it or Study it, no, that is just how i see the Items.

Nice Tunic, i like it



Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert View Post
What really does not work is, creating one's own reality (which in itself is ok, we all do that), then mating it with an "either-or" mentality (which to a certain degree is also ok, we all do it occasionally), but then confronting everyone else with it as if it was the ultimate truth... That does not work...

What is history? One could argue it is a great alibi for a lot of people to justify a lot of things (figuratively and literally), and collecting is one of them. It also gets confused with "story". Unless you write books about the great stories you must have heard and the great pieces you surely own... you do not really have history... just a number of stories you, and possibly only you, have heard and can connect to some items in you collection by the thin thread of one man's memory... What's going to happen when you, and all of us here, are gone, then, according to your own logic, all those things you have will suddenly become non-history, because all the stories and memories have seized to exist as well.

Turn this around, there is a great guy on this forum who does not collect! However, he has contributed a great deal to the hobby in general, to this forum in particular, and especially to the study of the RK!!! Now that is history;-) and he doesn't even own an RK, neither an anonymous nor an attributed one. Only for history preservation, it would arguably be perfectly sufficient to have a couple of representative specimen and books/ files. Voilà, history preserved...

Please don't get me wrong, you contribute a lot of good things, see the Oak discussion. Great contribution! It's not so much the content, it's your style that rubs some people the wrong way. Of course nobody in his right mind would disagree with you that the best scenario is to have an attributed piece with a story! But! ... there are so many ways to look at one and the same thing, and even more with different things. And of course is collecting coins and other stuff comparable to collecting awards, and other stuff;-)

Anyway, sorry if this came unsolicited, haven't written so much on the forum in years. Here is my contribution to the topic, a true field worn jacket (one of very few I ever had, alas no story...) and an unworn one. Love them both.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:28 PM   #30
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Thank You!

And thank you for turning stories into history!

Your way to collect is, in my opinion, the best, but not everyone is in the same lucky position in terms of access to German vets, their families, and their estates. In fact, only very few are. So, one has to be understanding I guess that others who have the same passion are in a different situation. Still, some people collect things, and in ways, that make me scratch my head, but I let them be the judge;-)

Again, I do agree that a great grouping from a neighboring village with a story, or sometime none, is the most rewarding way to collect. at least that I have experienced. I definitely see that the same way as you!

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