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Question Regarding Rank Insignia for Camo Uniform Items (Vorderseite)
Old 06-26-2019, 06:18 PM   #1
Robert999
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Default Question Regarding Rank Insignia for Camo Uniform Items (Vorderseite)

My question is was this type of insignia primarily worn on both sleeves, or just the left?
http://wehrmachtlexikon.de/waffenSS/...gabzeichen.php
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:24 PM   #2
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Just on one Sleeve
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Old 06-27-2019, 02:48 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiqueWW2 View Post
Just on one Sleeve

But frequently seen on either or both.... see the thread here http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1008343 with the famous photo of Witt, Meyer and Wunsche ... the latter wearing this type of insignia.


The 2nd Lieutenant you show is wearing 'Shirt Sleeve Order' which did not allow for the wearing of other rank insignia (although some wore shoulder straps) ... these were generic insignia so not just Waffen-SS, he could also be Army.


Ian
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Old 06-27-2019, 03:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Hulley View Post
But frequently seen on either or both.... see the thread here http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1008343 with the famous photo of Witt, Meyer and Wunsche ... the latter wearing this type of insignia.


The 2nd Lieutenant you show is wearing 'Shirt Sleeve Order' which did not allow for the wearing of other rank insignia (although some wore shoulder straps) ... these were generic insignia so not just Waffen-SS, he could also be Army.


Ian

Well that explains that.

Thank you.
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Old 06-27-2019, 10:27 AM   #5
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Of course you could wear it on both sides too, but i have several Pictures where it is just on one Side, and as you wrote correctly not only SS used them, almost all Pictures i have are from GBJ Officers. As far as i know, regulation just one Side and if they decide to wear it on both, noone care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Hulley View Post
But frequently seen on either or both.... see the thread here http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1008343 with the famous photo of Witt, Meyer and Wunsche ... the latter wearing this type of insignia.


The 2nd Lieutenant you show is wearing 'Shirt Sleeve Order' which did not allow for the wearing of other rank insignia (although some wore shoulder straps) ... these were generic insignia so not just Waffen-SS, he could also be Army.


Ian
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Old 06-27-2019, 03:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Hulley View Post
The 2nd Lieutenant you show is wearing 'Shirt Sleeve Order' which did not allow for the wearing of other rank insignia (although some wore shoulder straps) ... these were generic insignia so not just Waffen-SS, he could also be Army.
Ian
Hauptsturmführer Josef Kramer wearing rank insignia on left side of his shirt sleeve despite loops for shoulder straps.

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Old 06-27-2019, 03:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Höhe 112 View Post
Hauptsturmführer Josef Kramer wearing rank insignia on left side of his shirt sleeve despite loops for shoulder straps.

He, as with the other KL staff captured there, had their insignia stripped before being paraded before the Pathe News cameras.

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Old 06-27-2019, 03:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Of course you could wear it on both sides too, As far as i know, regulation just one Side and if they decide to wear it on both, noone care.
SS-Standartenführer Wilhelm Mohnke wearing rank insignia on both sides.

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Old 06-27-2019, 04:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Höhe 112 View Post
SS-Standartenführer Wilhelm Mohnke wearing rank insignia on both sides.

Custom Italian pattern suits and colour-piped visor too
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Old 06-27-2019, 07:02 PM   #10
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Official Regulations from 22.August 1942:

The Rank Insignia has to be worn on the left Sleeve, around 10cm down from the Shoulder. As i wrote, sure some put it on both sides, but official it was on the left Side only. Same regulations for Heer and Waffen SS. Here are a few Pictures, i have many more, but on everyone i looked at it was Left.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20190628_025446.jpg (71.4 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20190628_024219.jpg (38.4 KB, 214 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20190628_025500.jpg (126.7 KB, 215 views)
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Use on Camo Smocks?
Old 06-29-2019, 10:01 PM   #11
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Question Use on Camo Smocks?

Can anyone comment on the frequency of use on SS camo smocks by NCO's?

I can see an officer -- particularly higher ranking -- needing/wanting to have
his rank visible given his command role. However, can anyone comment
on their use by NCO's?

I understand that one could expose their collar tabs to show rank when
wearing the Tarnhemd, but wonder how frequently these were also used
on the smocks?
Many thanks,
John
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Old 06-30-2019, 07:42 AM   #12
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I like the discussion on subdued rank
Pretty interesting.

A friend of mine picked up a Field Marshall version of this rank directly from a vet.
It was quite the stir many years ago at the Draw Bridge Inn show.
Ron Manion ended up with it.
He freaked when he saw it and had to have it.
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Old 06-30-2019, 08:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John A. View Post
Can anyone comment on the frequency of use on SS camo smocks by NCO's?
Infrequently. Yes, you will find the occasional image of this however it is anathema to the vast majority showing it not being done.

In this example an SS-Scharführer during the period of tab removal order and this predates the issuance of formalized Rangabzeichen für die Tarnuniform. As does the following Gebirgs uniform wear by an SS-Oberscharführer. Photographic evidence of this is something you have to hunt for versus the plethora of images where this is not done.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SS-Scharführer mit Rangabzeichen für die Tarnuniform.jpg (55.4 KB, 167 views)
File Type: jpg Rangabzeichen Oscha.jpg (43.8 KB, 169 views)
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Old 06-30-2019, 08:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Höhe 112 View Post
SS-Standartenführer Wilhelm Mohnke wearing rank insignia on both sides.
However SS-Obersturmbannführer Hans Waldmüller did not which is interesting as there is a high degree of wear of this insignia within 12th SS-Panzer Division Hitlerjugend during their time in Normandy, particularly worn on both sleeves, while also a lack of wear by others within the unit. Either that means there was no specific order issued within the division formalizing the wear on the Tarnuniform or more likely a lack of Rangabzeichen für die Tarnuniform to go around.

Wear of this distinctive insignia was also specific to Normandy for this division. Training images in Belgium show for example Max Wünsche wearing his field tailored M1929 Telo mimetico tunic without them however he has had them added by the time they are in Normandy. Another image in Belgium shows Kurt Meyer in his blurred edge 4 pocket tunic without them and then he is pictured with them sewn on his 3 camouflage uniforms he wore in Normandy.

A rarer image in the division shows wear on the so called DOT44
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Waldmüller, Hans - Obersturmbannführer 1.25-SS.jpg (123.2 KB, 167 views)
File Type: jpg Grosspause fruh am jahr 1944_1.jpg (149.2 KB, 168 views)
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Great info, Lloyd!
Old 06-30-2019, 08:42 PM   #15
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Smile Great info, Lloyd!

Thanks very much! I have seen some photos taken before the formal Tarn rank system was adopted, which showed a single strip (or rarely, 2 strips) of apparently silver Tresse on the smocks, but have never seen photos of it on Dot 44, or 3 strips used. Thank you for sharing those with us, and the 12th SS Division-specific information is very interesting indeed!

I appreciate your help!
John
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