wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Uniforms and Equipment > Daggers and Edged Weapons Forum

Daggers and Edged Weapons Forum This is the corner of the site where you can talk about daggers, bayonets, swords and knifes of the Wehrmacht and related organizations.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 07-09-2019, 03:44 PM   #31
damasco
Member
 
damasco's Avatar
 
damasco is offline
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Braunfels
Posts: 391
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saufaenger kid View Post
James

How the hell is the hobby going to move on, how are we going to learn anything new if you make statements that you know of other early makers but your not going to tell us, it's petty to say that the team will have to work it out, I know you have invested many thousands buying reference but it's doing no good unless you publish some of it, reference is to share not to hoard for any type of gain. If I had any information that might help others I would gladly publish it, thats the minimum people should do to further our hobby.

Gary
Eric.. The hobby will not move on as far as forums are concerned.. As anyone can post (information??) and anyone can give a opinion.. What is the problem with this??? Some do not know what they are talking about.. Some buy to make profit some buy because they have a big ego and pocketbook .
Than there are the guys you have agendas and post information that is pro to there cause..
People who really study this stuff have one agenda (what is the truth) because what else do you gain by collecting documents,reference,catalogs etc....

Gary..I totally understand from your side of the fence..
I have shared many things personally with other collectors. Just not on the internet..
Now you buy a rare catalog or document. What happens to the value of the catalog or document once it is splashed on the internet where everyone thinks it falls under fair use and is not copyrighted.. I know from personal experience that original catalog or document becomes less in value...
Tom J. told me many times once he reprinted catalogs collectors rarely wanted the originals.. Be it the Epack catalog or WKC to Eickhorn that have been reprinted.
Again Gary I understand where you are coming from when I elude to information but do not post it,but a little surprised that you would say this about what is part of MY document collection. It is out there you just have to put the time in and open your billfold as I have.
It seems the hardware people don't mind paying $$$$ for it, but the paper documents etc.. everyone thinks it is communal property when it is not..
P.S. the last two shows I have been to I have given out new reference books to young and new collectors just trying to do my part for the hobby.
And will again the next MAX show.. Working on reference but where do you start..

Last edited by damasco; 07-09-2019 at 03:56 PM. Reason: spelling
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-09-2019, 06:29 PM   #32
krikke1980
Association Member
 
krikke1980 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vlaanderen de Leeuw
Posts: 1,678
Default

Serge, your pm inbox is full...
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-09-2019, 06:45 PM   #33
Serge M.
Moderator
 
Serge M.'s Avatar
 
Serge M. is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: out west
Posts: 4,771
Default

UPDATE:
I have been contacted by a respected member of our forum and we have been in discussions and I am now convinced this is a new legitimate venture.

If he wants to post that here, that's up to him, but he doesn't have to.

My goal is to be on the side of caution and protect the membership from a rash of scam sites that have no product, steal photos from dealers sites and entice collectors to buy from them with Half Price militaria and a product they don't own and is not consigned to them.
Here is one example: https://militarische.com/

Once you send your funds, it's the last you'll hear from them. As they only accept Bank Wire transfers. No Credit Cards, Checks, or Paypal. You will never get you money back.
This info was sent to me by a major dealer who had seen HIS items and PHOTOS listed on that site. So, guys it's best to check these things out, before your really out large.

-Serge
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-09-2019, 06:50 PM   #34
Serge M.
Moderator
 
Serge M.'s Avatar
 
Serge M. is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: out west
Posts: 4,771
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krikke1980 View Post
Serge, your pm inbox is full...
Made some space. Try now.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-12-2019, 06:27 PM   #35
The Red Baron
Association Member
 
The Red Baron is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: near the river
Posts: 1,574
Default

__________________
Ich will immer mehr
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-13-2019, 07:21 AM   #36
krikke1980
Association Member
 
krikke1980 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vlaanderen de Leeuw
Posts: 1,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge M. View Post
UPDATE:
I have been contacted by a respected member of our forum and we have been in discussions and I am now convinced this is a new legitimate venture.

If he wants to post that here, that's up to him, but he doesn't have to.

My goal is to be on the side of caution and protect the membership from a rash of scam sites that have no product, steal photos from dealers sites and entice collectors to buy from them with Half Price militaria and a product they don't own and is not consigned to them.
Here is one example: https://militarische.com/

Once you send your funds, it's the last you'll hear from them. As they only accept Bank Wire transfers. No Credit Cards, Checks, or Paypal. You will never get you money back.
This info was sent to me by a major dealer who had seen HIS items and PHOTOS listed on that site. So, guys it's best to check these things out, before your really out large.

-Serge
Thank you Serge.
I'm happy we cleared that out.

With this reply, I'll come forward as the co-owner of Elite Relic Militaria aka ERM. Maybe I should have done that earlier to avoid all this stress.
Honestly we were planning to come forward at the end of the year by advertising our site here on WAF but we wanted to see how our website was running first before coming forward.

Our goal with ERM is quit simple actually. Educational aswell as selling some good items. Some are consignment pieces, which we welcome offcourse and some items are from our personal collections.
The articles that we write will mostly tell no secrets but will be interesting for starting collectors and WW2 history interesées. If the articles have some error in it, then please don't shoot us. Point it out and we'll adapt. They are living documents. There will come more articles in the future but offcourse those ask time.

Furthermore I would like to apologize myself for all the confusion.
We are collectors ourself and have all respect to others.

Good luck collecting to all.

Kris
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-19-2019, 12:07 PM   #37
Frogprince
Member
 
Frogprince's Avatar
 
Frogprince is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: West Coast USA
Posts: 3,385
Default

I was sent a PM regarding what I said were noticeable errors in this article that have been repeated for a number of years. I told the sender I would respond either back to him via PM, or by commenting on the Forum. Here is a very brief summary of some of the relevant facts:

The M1933 article text: …………….. “These grips were dyed black (via boiling in aniline)[2] during the period—lacquer or paint were never used. The process used to dye the wood seems to have made the wood brittle, resulting in a higher percentage of chipped grips than seen on similarly aged Sturmabteilung (SA) daggers.”……………..

"[2] https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/finishes/aniline-dyes."



What the Aniline Dye article says: …………….. "Here's how to dye wood: Aniline dye comes as a powder that you dissolve in water, alcohol, or petroleum solvents, depending on the formulation."…………….. "For use, stir the dye powder into hot water, as shown below. (Don't mix it in boiling water; straight hot tap water works fine.) Rubber gloves will keep you from having fancy-colored fingertips. The standard concentration is 1 oz. of powder to 1 qt. of water. To mix smaller amounts, dissolve about 1⁄4 tsp. of powder into 8 oz. of water; about 1⁄8 tsp. into 4 oz. or more to lessen the intensity, or add dye powder to increase it. After mixing, let the dye cool. Then strain the solution through a coffee filter or nylon stocking, as shown below, before applying it to the wood." ……………..

Nowhere in the wood working article does it say that the wood should be placed in either boiling water, or alcohol etc. Boiling water being one of the ways used to manufacture wood pulp for paper it causes the wood to break down. (BTW: Alcohol and petroleum solvents can burn, and under the right conditions can also explode.) That said, there is no question that as wood ages it can get brittle. But untouched wood usually shrinks as it dries and pulls away from the wood that alleviates stress. Whereas stress from fooling around usually being what causes dagger grips to get damaged. FP
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-19-2019, 02:36 PM   #38
The Red Baron
Association Member
 
The Red Baron is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: near the river
Posts: 1,574
Default

Do you not think the grips were boiled or that wood was ever dyed via boiling? I'm confused a bit.
__________________
Ich will immer mehr
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-19-2019, 03:25 PM   #39
Frogprince
Member
 
Frogprince's Avatar
 
Frogprince is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: West Coast USA
Posts: 3,385
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Red Baron View Post
Do you not think the grips were boiled or that wood was ever dyed via boiling? I'm confused a bit.
No, I don't think they were boiled anymore than they would have boiled closely fitted bayonet, and pistol grips, or rifle stocks. And not if you understand how the Germans manufactured some of the different items made during the TR era. 1) The Germans went to some effort to "season" (dry out) the wood so it would not twist, split, dimensionally change etc. before it was machined and finished by sanding. Not always 100% effective, sometimes (but very rarely) twisted dagger grips have been seen, with those rifle stocks that did in fact become twisted after being manufactured that had to be reworked - or discarded if the wood stock could not be stabilized which affected the rifle's accuracy. 2) Untouched catastrophically broken grips show a topical surface finish reasonably comparable to some contemporary wood stain products, untouched holes for tangs having the same unfinished bare wood appearance etc. etc. Which is not to say that a fairly large number "postwar dagger mechanics" have not touched up and tried to conceal postwar damage using different techniques. FP
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-20-2019, 10:43 AM   #40
The Red Baron
Association Member
 
The Red Baron is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: near the river
Posts: 1,574
Default

Interesting; every book and article i've read also says grips were boiled in a black dye.
__________________
Ich will immer mehr
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-20-2019, 11:13 AM   #41
BobI
Forum Sponsor
 
BobI is offline
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mexico
Posts: 3,167
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Red Baron View Post
Interesting; every book and article i've read also says grips were boiled in a black dye.

I truly do not know but I do know when not to trust a source for information. With your background you should be VERY good at researching so I tend to believe you are correct.
Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-20-2019, 11:42 AM   #42
Frogprince
Member
 
Frogprince's Avatar
 
Frogprince is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: West Coast USA
Posts: 3,385
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Red Baron View Post
Interesting; every book and article i've read also says grips were boiled in a black dye.
From my perspective that’s only mildly interesting - and not really surprising, I wonder how much actual legitimate “expertise” or education/experience those writers had?? Is there a school somewhere where that is being taught?

Very Briefly: With freshly harvested wood (Walnut for example) the Germans of the TR era making guns knew that they had to remove 30 to 60 percent of the water content to be able to initially process it. Knowing that shrinkage caused stresses resulting in splits etc. etc. with a commodity that was in limited supply. After some preparatory steps it was first air dried for three months. Then kiln (special drying chambers) dried for eight months wherein there was other (somewhat involved) special processing - etc. At the end of the roughly year long process the wood had to be below 12% moisture content. And that was before the wood blanks were actually machined and sanded prior to being fitted.

Of course in the “Dagger World Universe” none of that mattered because you took your otherwise finished fully machined and sanded grips and dropped them in a pot of boiling water and set the timer. FP
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-20-2019, 02:52 PM   #43
nickn
Association Member
 
nickn is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: london
Posts: 3,091
Default

I tried dyeing an sa grip black
I bought aniline dye and mixed the powder in water as instructed and left in a sealed container for a week
The dye barely penetrated the wood
I then tried boiling the grip ,or rather simmering , in the water dye mix for about an hour and it penetrated very deeply
After the grip dried out I polished with 7000 wet and dry and a jewellers polishing cloth and the result was very good
That’s all I can say
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-20-2019, 03:06 PM   #44
The Red Baron
Association Member
 
The Red Baron is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: near the river
Posts: 1,574
Default

Seems fair to say the grips were dyed in hot/boiling aniline.
__________________
Ich will immer mehr
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-20-2019, 04:45 PM   #45
Frogprince
Member
 
Frogprince's Avatar
 
Frogprince is offline
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: West Coast USA
Posts: 3,385
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickn View Post
I tried dyeing an sa grip black
I bought aniline dye and mixed the powder in water as instructed and left in a sealed container for a week
The dye barely penetrated the wood
I then tried boiling the grip ,or rather simmering , in the water dye mix for about an hour and it penetrated very deeply
After the grip dried out I polished with 7000 wet and dry and a jewellers polishing cloth and the result was very good
That’s all I can say
Not in hand and no pictures I don’t know how well the SA grip wood was prepared for being dyed. What the wood working article says is this:

.......“ Tips on dyeing the wood: Sand the project as you would for staining or clear finishing. Do not seal or fill the wood; it must absorb the dye.”........

In other words the original finish has to be completely removed with no original finish left in the wood’s pores for the dye to be properly absorbed. Of course there can be a way to try and get around that which is something that restorers of well used military rifles sometimes use. That being a wet cloth and steam iron to steam out the dents in the wood. The heat generating steam inside the cells of the wood which expand (disrupting/rupturing the cell walls) pushing the dent, or dents up and out. A side effect being that it also raises surrounding wood fibers, which then depending on the severity, have to be sanded down that destroys/removes the original stock finish. In extreme cases all of the stock finish may have to be stripped off and then refinished. With that said, as a practical matter most postwar dagger mechanics don’t bother, and use the much easier solvent based commercial black shoe dye.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Red Baron View Post
Seems fair to say the grips were dyed in hot/boiling aniline.
The problem with that idea is that the boiling dye is going to penetrate any and all openings and dye them, as well as disrupting cell walls raising the wood grain. Which is not what is seen with untouched examples. Also why do the border-edges of the grip/crossguard areas look like a topical/surface finish as seen with a number of daggers? And what prevents the grips from breaking up? FP
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com