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Political Organizations All aspects of Third Reich Political Organizations, including the SA, NSDAP, NSKK, NSFK, DAF, NSKOV, etc.

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Old 04-04-2008, 01:23 PM   #16
solo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonemint View Post
Solo--it is a Reichs-level cap. It could be Ordensburgen. What is the RZM #? I bet its a 4.
How about more pics of your new baby?!

Yes is made by Clemens Wagner #4.I don't have yet more pics.So it's NSDAP Reich level (Reichsleitung) Ordensburgen what is?
Sorry if I bother you but the NSDAP organisation is very complicate for me
Thanks
Carlo

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Probably in the weekend I'll get some more pictures
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Old 04-04-2008, 01:46 PM   #17
Pascal Bernhard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo View Post
Yes is made by Clemens Wagner #4.I don't have yet more pics.So it's NSDAP Reich level (Reichsleitung) Ordensburgen what is?
Sorry if I bother you but the NSDAP organisation is very complicate for me
Thanks
Carlo

PS
Probably in the weekend I'll get some more pictures
Hi Carlo,
Ordensburgen, IMO, the "Reichsleitung" caps don't have ventilation grommets, and the color of the top is more "Ordensburgen" tan than the mustard PL color.
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:28 PM   #18
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I checked the Halcomb/Saris book--as I expected, they don't address the reason for the difference in shades--they just list for Reichsleitungen that
the piping schedule is either Goldgelb or Schwefelgelb. They do note that the bright red of Gau was abolished for the Dunkelweinrot.

The mystery continues.....
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:29 PM   #19
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To Further Complicate This Issue, Here Is A Partial Shot Of A Prewar Pattern 3 Reichsleitung Level Cap By Clemens Wagner Compared Against The Lemon Yellow Piping On A Reichsbereichsleiter Collar Tab. Note How The Cap Piping Is Much Darker Than The Collar Tab And Collar Piping.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:35 PM   #20
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Now, The Typical Clemens Wagner Cap From Vogelsong. Note The Similarity In The Color Of The Pipings. Since The Regulations Call Out Two Different Colors For Reichsleitung And Ordensburg, I Question Why The Piping On These Tabs Matches The Piping On The Cap. Possibly, During The War, The Pipings Were Simplified? I Know The Darker Yellow Is Definitely Reichsleitung And The Lighter Yellow Is Ordensburg. However, Was The Lighter Yellow Used By Both During The War?
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:43 PM   #21
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Finally, The Lemon Yellow Piped Cap Compared To The Collar Piping And Shoulder Board Underlay Found On A High Ranking Ordensburg Official's Tunic. The Tunic Yellow Is Soiled From Wear And Use, Not To Mention Post War Poor Storage. The Color Is Definitely Right On With The Type 4 Hat Piping.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:50 PM   #22
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In Conclusion, I Find That The " Cavalry " Yellow Is Definitely Reichsleitung
The Lemon Yellow Is Definitley Ordensburg
Cavalry Yellow Was Not Utilized By Ordensburg Prior To The 4th Pattern Political Insignia
The Lemoin Yellow Piping Found On Reichsleitung Uniforms May Indicate A Change During The War To Lemon Yellow. However, This Is Conjecture And I Am Not Sure Now I Believe That.
I Know Lemon Yellow Caps From Vogelsong Are Far More Common Than The Cavalry Yellow Piped Caps. This Is Due To The Fact That Vogelsong Was Occupied As An American Headquarters, Opening The Warehouses Up To Hungry G I Souvenir Hunters. Except For That Fact, I Would Think The Lemon Yellow Would Have Been Much Rarer Than They Are Today Due To The Fact That Few In Collections Show Any Wear.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:21 PM   #23
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Bob, I think we have a consensus. Here is a pre-war Ordensburgen visor, Form 3. The color is in between the golden and lemon, but definately leans more strongly to the lemon-yellow:
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:22 PM   #24
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This was Ed Stadnicki's, and is marked to an Ordensburgen:
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:32 PM   #25
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This shows the similarity of the piping of an M-36 Ordensburgen and the Osteinsatz, 2 hats which are at least 6, if not 8 years apart. (The pic is also useful for illustrating the difference in body coloration for regular NSDAP, Ordensburg, and O-E).

So, I agree--all these lemon-yellows are Ordensburgen--I just wish we knew the explanation for the lemon-yellow on the tabs of the Reichsleitung--I am surprised the RZM didn't mention it, and/or Uniform-Markt didn't explain it.

Bob, you have more of these than I do--can you line up a shot as follows:
1. NPEA; 2. Ordens Form III; 3. Ordens Form IV; and a standard Reichs Form 4 NSDAP just to show the difference in body colors--I don't think that has ever been done before--if you don't mind, of course!
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:35 PM   #26
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I Forgot About This Piece. Here Is A Slightly Earier Model With The First Pattern Political Roundal. It Has A Property Stamp To Ordensburg Krossensee. I Remember Ed's Cap With The Army Eagle. Odd How Color Changes In a Picture. he Visor Is Black, Not Brown.
With Some Good Light In The Morning, I Will Take A Group Shot Of The Caps As Requested.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:37 PM   #27
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Here I am, back again to complicate things some more. Ley looks like he is wearing a Reichs-level hat with golden-yellow piping (it ain't bullion, thats for sure!)
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:43 PM   #28
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And here is the only one of its kind that I am aware of in any collection today--a Reichsleitung with the hyper-rare first style wreath. These seem to have only been worn in the spring/summer of 1939, and then the standard style came out. What is interesting is that there is no indication that this is Ordensburgen--where they experimenting? (They aren't prototypes, as there is much pictorial evidence of them in wear). And why is this wreath not covered in the reference books and /or the RZM?

The mystery continues.....
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:04 AM   #29
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As you stated ,Chris and Bob, the lemon is for political school and the golden is for reichleiter,but in Moran book is pictured a gold yellow with inside a stamp of Ordenburgen school
Mistery continues....
Carlo
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:06 AM   #30
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I forgot the picture
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