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John Burnett Helmet Forum One of the most distinguishing characteristics of the German fighting force was their Stahlhelm.

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Old 11-29-2015, 09:45 AM   #46
SSamir
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Doug, ZAM, great work and research! My hats off to you guys and I say this with sincerity.

It's obvious that the "vet" who sold one of these to KH in the 1970s was a fraud, and it shouldn't be surprising, as this hobby is flooded with them.

KH is one of the most honest and respected people in this game. With over 40 years in the game and having to share his research on SS helmets has saved us thousands of dollors thanks to his book "SS steel". He has contributed to this hobby more than a lotta people here.

I have dealt with him many times. I bought a few SS helmets at a steal from him. I remember once he sold me an SS insignia, which was lost in the mail. I contacted him regarding the matter and he instantly refunded my money, no questions asked, so it hurts me how some here (brown noses) here falsley accuse him of "fraud". People who don't know him, never bought from him, never dealt with him. You know, the "wannabes".

I have met this man in person and he is a sweetheart! Down to earth, always smiling, honest, just a genuine friendly guy. No kissing up here, just being outright honest. The man lives only 30 mins away from me.

Interesting findings here, of course. Doug stands firm on his research, so does KH. I am not going to take sides here, I myself had some doubts about the CH but that is irrelevant since I am an SS rookie. I respect both their research, their findings and their experience.

I will continue my friendship with KH and my business. I am honored to have him as a friend and a silly CH decal won't change that. Happy helmet collecting
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:13 AM   #47
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That's a strange post Samir with all due respect. In my article I state specifically that his work notwithstanding CH decals are invaluable to the hobby. This isn't about KH. This is about bringing to light the fraud that is these CH "decals" that has been legitimized via publication and sole source authentication. Any defense of CH "decals" (which aren't decals at all but painted images) is akin to defending the Earth is flat.
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:17 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougB View Post
In my article I state specifically that his work notwithstanding CH decals are invaluable to the hobby.
My post does not apply to you, only to the ones who have made indirect comments that he's has defrauded people. I know your intentions are innocent and only made to educate people on CH decals.
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:39 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigschuss View Post
Doug, just out of curiosity about the learning process for you. You disagreed with Walter and Dirk in both of those earlier threads that were posted. Was your eventual change of opinion based on a slow accumulation of evidence and a reshaping of your ideas? Or did it come more suddenly like a light bulb going off?

I'm fascinated by this watershed moment. You are the Charles Darwin of German helmet collecting.

Blair
Hi Blair

I staunchly defended these when I allowed myself to be led by publication and sole source authentication. However for me the watershed moment was not the CH decals at all but the fact that the black M34 I used to own in SS Steel was fake. I was (and laughably still am) met with resistance that this helmet could be a fake. How can this be I wondered?

To take you back I saw the same decals on several helmets that did not sit right with me and so I suspected this was fake, and bought the helmet back from the person I sold it to and began a 3 year process to prove one way or the other it was fake or real, much like the CH decals now.

To make a long story short I proved it and when I presented the evidence I was asked to keep it quiet. A mistake had obviously been made. I did out of respect and I sent the helmet back to where I bought it. I did ask KH about the COA Lifetime Guarantee and was denied, stating an honest mistake which I agreed with the logic. I was asked to keep it quiet as the helmet was out of circulation and nobody else would get burnt. (Other than me LOL). However when the helmet turned up for sale at an auction site I outted the helmet and also dug up the history of the helmet that was contrary to what I was told.

This combined with an every increasing amount of bad COA's on fake SS helmets I started to see (see pinned COA thread on GHW) and the XRF boondoggle told me clearly that sole source authentication and publication be damned, KH word was not the last word on SS helmets.

Enough problems like the ones Walter, Terry, KenN, ZAM and others pointed out with these CH "decals" existed so my next project was to find out for myself and on my own if these were real, or were they fake. And so began an expensive 3 year quiet journey which ended with conclusive proof these are fake, all of them.

It just takes patience, time, money and courage. Thankfully others had the courage to state their opinions earlier on these. It merely needed the rest to definitively prove one way or the other if fake or real.

The evidence I found is indisputable.

There's a lot more Blair that I won't say publicly but suffice to say, I will never trust sole source authentication and publication ever ever again.

This hobby can never allow itself to abdicate expertise to one individual. Once we do that, we are to put it bluntly, f u c k e d.

Last edited by DougB; 11-29-2015 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Grammer
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:42 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSamir View Post
My post does not apply to you, only to the ones who have made indirect comments that he's has defrauded people. I know your intentions are innocent and only made to educate people on CH decals.
Thanks for the clarity Samir. My purpose in this is about what is real and what is not, and not allowing myself to be shephered along. Sharing the information and raising the collective knowledge bar in the community is a core belief of mine, it's the only way to keep the hobby safe, growing and enjoyable.
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:53 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSamir View Post
Doug, ZAM, great work and research! My hats off to you guys and I say this with sincerity.

It's obvious that the "vet" who sold one of these to KH in the 1970s was a fraud, and it shouldn't be surprising, as this hobby is flooded with them.

KH is one of the most honest and respected people in this game. With over 40 years in the game and having to share his research on SS helmets has saved us thousands of dollors thanks to his book "SS steel". He has contributed to this hobby more than a lotta people here.

I have dealt with him many times. I bought a few SS helmets at a steal from him. I remember once he sold me an SS insignia, which was lost in the mail. I contacted him regarding the matter and he instantly refunded my money, no questions asked, so it hurts me how some here (brown noses) here falsley accuse him of "fraud". People who don't know him, never bought from him, never dealt with him. You know, the "wannabes".

I have met this man in person and he is a sweetheart! Down to earth, always smiling, honest, just a genuine friendly guy. No kissing up here, just being outright honest. The man lives only 30 mins away from me.

Interesting findings here, of course. Doug stands firm on his research, so does KH. I am not going to take sides here, I myself had some doubts about the CH but that is irrelevant since I am an SS rookie. I respect both their research, their findings and their experience.

I will continue my friendship with KH and my business. I am honored to have him as a friend and a silly CH decal won't change that. Happy helmet collecting
Bizarre posting for sure. Who is questioning KH's honesty or integrity? Please provide the specific instances where that is done.
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:10 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougB View Post
Hi Blair

I staunchly defended these when I allowed myself to be led by publication and sole source authentication. However for me the watershed moment was not the CH decals at all but the fact that the black M34 I used to own in SS Steel was fake. I was (and laughably still am) met with resistance that this helmet could be a fake. How can this be I wondered?

To take you back I saw the same decals on several helmets that did not sit right with me and so I suspected this was fake, and bought the helmet back from the person I sold it to and began a 3 year process to prove one way or the other it was fake or real, much like the CH decals now.

To make a long story short I proved it and when I presented the evidence I was asked to keep it quiet. A mistake had obviously been made. I did out of respect and I sent the helmet back to where I bought it. I did ask KH about the COA Lifetime Guarantee and was denied, stating an honest mistake which I agreed with the logic. I was asked to keep it quiet as the helmet was out of circulation and nobody else would get burnt. (Other than me LOL). However when the helmet turned up for sale at an auction site I outted the helmet and also dug up the history of the helmet that was contrary to what I was told.

This combined with an every increasing amount of bad COA's on fake SS helmets I started to see (see pinned COA thread on GHW) and the XRF boondoggle told me clearly that sole source authentication and publication be damned, KH word was not the last word on SS helmets.

Enough problems like the ones Walter, Terry, KenN, ZAM and others pointed out with these CH "decals" existed so my next project was to find out for myself and on my own if these were real, or were they fake. And so began an expensive 3 year quiet journey which ended with conclusive proof these are fake, all of them.

It just takes patience, time, money and courage. Thankfully others had the courage to state their opinions earlier on these. It merely needed the rest to definitively prove one way or the other if fake or real.

The evidence I found is indisputable.

There's a lot more Blair that I won't say publicly but suffice to say, I will never trust sole source authentication and publication ever ever again.

This hobby can never allow itself to abdicate expertise to one individual. Once we do that, we are to put it bluntly, f u c k e d.
Hi Doug. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I imagine your PM inbox is full and your phone has not stopped ringing these past few days. Wow. What a journey. It's fascinating to me on so many levels...it involves a hobby I love, a mystery, some research, and then your write up. I was looking forward to this all fall...yeah, I guess I've got some inner nerd going on.

Thanks again, Doug.

Blair
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:16 PM   #53
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Thanks Doug for having the guts to put this together!

Fakes and greed will kill this hobby

Tom
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:49 PM   #54
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can anyone give an estimate on the number of helmets out there donning the Champagne "decal"? are we talking 100s or 1000s?
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:50 PM   #55
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Knock off the petty squabbling and let this information get out! Great job Doug.

Chuck
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luftwaffenkopf View Post
can anyone give an estimate on the number of helmets out there donning the Champagne "decal"? are we talking 100s or 1000s?
I think even if it were only in the 100's that would be a lot of potential money lost/tied up and how many will actually honor a lifetime guarantee of authenticity? Some could/would go bankrupt making good on such.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ValhallaMilitaria View Post
I think even if it were only in the 100's that would be a lot of potential money lost/tied up and how many will actually honor a lifetime guarantee of authenticity? Some could/would go bankrupt making good on such.
it depends on how many/badly people got burned, but a class action suit is not off the table... are there any precedents of this in collecting communities?
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:11 PM   #58
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Good work Doug
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:31 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luftwaffenkopf View Post
can anyone give an estimate on the number of helmets out there donning the Champagne "decal"? are we talking 100s or 1000s?
I searched for every helmet with a CH decal I could find. In my topic on GHW there were 24 I recorded and by recorded I either laid hands or eyes on it. I know of more that are out there but If you search the topic here or GHW you find the same helmets circulating from dealer to collector to collector to dealer over and over and over again.

I estimate there are 40-50, maybe more.

The thing is there is no reason to panic, it's not 100's and 100s and now that by reading the topic everyone knows what to look for. There's no reason to be concerned about buying one inadvertently now.

Like I said in my article he tried to make a fake Pocher as well and that is easy to spot because it is a fake of an existing decal. The CH took off because it was classified as its own unique decal when in fact it was a painted fake of an ET decal and was legitimized via publication and sole source authentication.
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:46 PM   #60
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I've been asked quite a few times offline if non members or guests can read the GHW forum and the answer is no, you must be a member. Membership is free and no cost to post photos. Just join up and the article is pinned in the German Helmets 35-45 section.
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