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Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 1949-Present From West Germany through to the modern reunified German Republic.

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Old 11-22-2007, 08:07 AM   #16
Gordon Craig
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Gentlemen,

When Pat started this thread his intent was to start a refence thread for uniforms in wear by the BGS, when they changed and probably the dates of the insignia as well. Since no one else has been able to post any information related to these tunics I am going to start by posting the oldest uniform I have with me that is not in storage. I acquired this tunic in the spring of 2004. In June of 2004 I pictures of the tunic to the "Bekleidungswirtschaft im BGS". Their response confirmed that the tunic was that of the rank of "Präsident" in the BGS. They also said that this type of tunic was worn from 1952 until 1971. They were a bit off here as my tunic is dated 1976 and photos in Reinhard Scholzen's book "Der BGS Geschichte der Bundespolizei" indicate they were worn as late as 1980. At the time I contacted the BGS there were only 5 men who held the position of "Präsident" in the BGS. I do not know how many men held this position in the 1970s (possibly 4) but I do know that when Germany was reunited the BGS created a new "Grenschutzpräsidium Ost" which encompassed most of the old East Gemrnay.
I suspect that this tunic was aquired as "stripped" tunic by some former collector who attempted to replace all of the insignia. The shoulderboards are correct althought the BGS clothing office says they never had eagles on their boards. The eagles resemble those worn on the enlisted men's hats of that period. I have left them as they were when I acquired the tunic since the BGS clothing people were incoreect in some of the things they said they may be incoreect here as well. The collar tabs are correct and sewn on correctly. The left breast button and the two shoulderboard buttons are possibly replacements as they are the colour of the buttons used on the later BGS general officer's uniforms. The rest of the buttons are original to the tunic and of the dark gold worn by West German general officers in this time period. Now, on with the pictures.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:08 AM   #17
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A close-up of the shoulderboards and collar tabs. Right side first.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:10 AM   #18
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The left side.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:11 AM   #19
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The back of the tunic.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:13 AM   #20
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The tunic came with an a BGS general officers gold embroidered arm shield in the left breast pocket.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:15 AM   #21
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The back of the badge. The scothtape you see at the top of the badge is there to attach a tag describing the eagle which I will post next.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:16 AM   #22
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The descriptive paper tag that came attached to the arm shield.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:19 AM   #23
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A picture of Rudolph Thieser when he was "Kommandeur des GSK sud in Jahr 1980". He appears to be wearing the same uniform. The picture is from the book I referenced above.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:29 AM   #24
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Next, a picture of Kurt Andersen as "Inspelteur des BGS" dated as 1958. Andersen is seated on the left as viewed by you. Note that on these dark green uniforms only the arm shield is worn. The title BUNDESGRESCHUTZ does not appear to have been introduced until the next uniforms came into use. These tow pictures give us an approximate time span for the wear of the original dark green uniforms from the 1950s until 1980.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:54 PM   #25
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Here are two that I have:



The one on the left is a clone of Robert's, dated 1971. The one on the right is a "second pattern" according to Daniel Peterson. It is dated 1962, has a detachable hood, no provision for shoulder boards, never had a sleeve pocket (and no sign of a BGS patch having ever been there), no belt hooks, no D-rings in the back (only a single strap of some sort on the left hand side), and a two piece back (with a central back seam, absent on the third pattern). The camo is also a little different between the two. The earlier Sumpf pattern has a darker base, is more subdued, with softer edges than on the later one; at least on these two examples.

Between Robert's 1969 third pattern and my 1962 second pattern, we have now "narrowed" down the period in which the sleeve patch appeared on these camo field tunics to a mere 7 years

Gene T
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Old 11-23-2007, 03:30 AM   #26
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Gene T,

Interesting comparison between the two ?. What do we call these things? Coats, Jackets, smocks? Kicking myself I don't have Petersen's book to look at. I may have to buy another copy.

Regards,


Gordon
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Old 11-23-2007, 03:45 AM   #27
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Hi Guys
a very interesting thread and gave me some new knowledge, Gene T I like the second pattern jacket never seen this type around where could I get one? maybe e bay.

all the best
Robert
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Old 11-23-2007, 12:09 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene T View Post
Here are two that I have:



The one on the left is a clone of Robert's, dated 1971. The one on the right is a "second pattern" according to Daniel Peterson. It is dated 1962, has a detachable hood, no provision for shoulder boards, never had a sleeve pocket (and no sign of a BGS patch having ever been there), no belt hooks, no D-rings in the back (only a single strap of some sort on the left hand side), and a two piece back (with a central back seam, absent on the third pattern). The camo is also a little different between the two. The earlier Sumpf pattern has a darker base, is more subdued, with softer edges than on the later one; at least on these two examples.

Between Robert's 1969 third pattern and my 1962 second pattern, we have now "narrowed" down the period in which the sleeve patch appeared on these camo field tunics to a mere 7 years

Gene T
Genosse, I have the Hood but no Jacket.. except the later one that doesn't use one. ..
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Old 11-23-2007, 03:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene T View Post
Here are two that I have:



The one on the left is a clone of Robert's, dated 1971. The one on the right is a "second pattern" according to Daniel Peterson. It is dated 1962, has a detachable hood, no provision for shoulder boards, never had a sleeve pocket (and no sign of a BGS patch having ever been there), no belt hooks, no D-rings in the back (only a single strap of some sort on the left hand side), and a two piece back (with a central back seam, absent on the third pattern). The camo is also a little different between the two. The earlier Sumpf pattern has a darker base, is more subdued, with softer edges than on the later one; at least on these two examples.

Between Robert's 1969 third pattern and my 1962 second pattern, we have now "narrowed" down the period in which the sleeve patch appeared on these camo field tunics to a mere 7 years

Gene T

Gene T - The attached photo depicts a Bee Gee in basic training.

The picture is dated 30 NOV 63. There is no evidence of any insignia / patches, as is true of your 62 dated camo smock.

Note also the pine green stahlhelm with thick pine green camo net. Also note that the Y-straps are worn underneath the reinforced shoulder material.

There is another photo in this lot that shows an M-43 hat with roundel in the same camo material.

Take care - G5
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Another photo in Black & White
Old 11-23-2007, 03:55 PM   #30
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Default Another photo in Black & White

Gents - Another photo of our friend wearing a camo smock, helmet and slung G-1, taken in the barracks.

G5
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