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Old 10-31-2012, 05:33 PM   #46
Lloyd I.
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I'll keep digging.

Even the principles involved offer conflicting first hand testimony about the events at VB and there are various reports about turret numbers. Even at Gaumesnil there are unknowns still. I'm not regurgitating authors but my own research which to me is much more rewarding than saying Jan or Heimdal answered it for me. Track numbers were recycled within units. Rather than a middle 1 I think its just the break in the Zimmermit pattern. I dont have a BA high res to work from which is better and I'm certainly not opposed to arriving at the same conclusion.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:46 AM   #47
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Yes, and at the risk of regurgitating research work done by others, there is no evidence that there was any Tiger numbered 102 in this unit. Everything I've read is categoric that Moebius' tank was numbered 105, and his deputy's was 104. I have never seen anything to indicate that the battalion renumbered its Tigers either - and I seriously question why it would have done so prior to going into battle. The only account I've read of a unit renumbering its tanks in the early stages of the Normandy campaign was the 1st Battalion of the 12SS Panzer Regiment, which pulled its third company out of the line after its heavy losses outside of Norrey-en-Bessin on 09 June and re-allocated its surviving tanks to the other companies to make up for the latters' losses. Indeed, that third company received a full complement of new Panthers in July, if memory serves, and went back into the line then. Indeed, there is a famous sequence of pictures taken in Fontenay-le-Plesnel on 26 June showing Panther 219 (an Auf D) which, rather curiously, has the number 313 painted on its cupola. In any event, if another unit did such a wholesale renumbering of its tanks during those first two weeks in Normandy, I'd be very grateful for information to that effect.

What this particular picture shows, as do the ones when the markings had yet to see any battle (and I again turn to the famous series of pictures taken both outside of Beauvais and later outside of Morgy-en-Vexin) is the slightly uneven and, at time, asymetrical spacing on the turret numbers, possibly due to the difficulty in applying stencils over Zimmerit, what with trunions and loading port in the way - in comparison to the neat applications on the rear turret stowage boxes, which were not covered with the paste. This is why I'm always a bit careful about extrapolating the exact identification of hidden digits when I too try to divine which tank is being shown...


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There was no "102" in this unit, and it is "112".
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:10 PM   #48
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"there is no evidence that there was any Tiger numbered 102 in this unit" does not rule out the possibility this has not been uncovered yet through more research.

#223 of s.SS-101
was a renumbered mount as just one example of renumbering in Normandy 44. So add this unit to the 12thSS among many others.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:25 AM   #49
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"there is no evidence that there was any Tiger numbered 102 in this unit" does not rule out the possibility this has not been uncovered yet through more research.

Let us please know how that goes.

#223 of s.SS-101 was a renumbered mount as just one example of renumbering in Normandy 44. So add this unit to the 12thSS among many others.

Very well disseminated pictures of it dated 07 June 1944 exist, as it was on its way to the front: was it renumbered before getting there? It's very well known that tanks were renumbered during the Normandy campaign, but I've found no evidence that any of this occurred in the first two weeks of combat, apart from the example given. I'd be grateful for evidence to the contrary.








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Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
"there is no evidence that there was any Tiger numbered 102 in this unit" does not rule out the possibility this has not been uncovered yet through more research.

#223 of s.SS-101
was a renumbered mount as just one example of renumbering in Normandy 44. So add this unit to the 12thSS among many others.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:53 PM   #50
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I'll be sure to keep you posted once I can focus and get back overseas. I'm working a publication on Helicopter Night Warfare in Vietnam at present which is mostly writing at this point having gathered from veterans as much detail as possible. That is my focus though my first zeal was armor.

Getting away from western resources for research is a first step. A lot is left to be uncovered in the East offering fresh perspectives.
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things you find on german ebay......
Old 12-12-2012, 12:35 AM   #51
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I just received 'tigers in Normandy' and the author Wolfgang Schneider states that he was in 222. I haven't read it in any depth yet it will take a couple of times before the information sinks in. He has been particularly critical towards Wittmann. I am not really sure if the criticism should be directed at Wittmann because mobius certainly made a number of mistakes. It really comes down to who made the bigger mistakes on the day.

This is also the assertion that he makes in 'tigers in combat II'. Tigers in combat actually has a synopsis of each and every units war diary. 222 gets a mention again and he has actually started to list chassis numbers for some units. he also has a couple of pictures in tiger is combat taken by Wittmann himself which I found totally fascinating.

I don't really think you can argue with the author. He's a former colonel in the German army and I think he actually has a hand in a number of publications, including the A7V and the leopard both variants. He also has access to all the research material.

any how I hope this helps.......
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:04 AM   #52
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Hi Guys,

Maybe it was already posted here. If not.....this is a docu about what happend with Michael Wittmanns tank. How he got killed.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uCKhIkAgec

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiF2XXVyO90

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlzvtYfczQ

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epnoe2r10iY

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj97_pTIT1E

Cheers
Erwin
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:58 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angella View Post
I just received 'tigers in Normandy' and the author Wolfgang Schneider states that he was in 222. I haven't read it in any depth yet it will take a couple of times before the information sinks in. He has been particularly critical towards Wittmann. I am not really sure if the criticism should be directed at Wittmann because mobius certainly made a number of mistakes. It really comes down to who made the bigger mistakes on the day.

This is also the assertion that he makes in 'tigers in combat II'. Tigers in combat actually has a synopsis of each and every units war diary. 222 gets a mention again and he has actually started to list chassis numbers for some units. he also has a couple of pictures in tiger is combat taken by Wittmann himself which I found totally fascinating.

I don't really think you can argue with the author. He's a former colonel in the German army and I think he actually has a hand in a number of publications, including the A7V and the leopard both variants. He also has access to all the research material.

any how I hope this helps.......
The more info. the better, especially if he is a reliable source. I look forward to your thoughts after reading again, whether you think definitively that he was in Tiger 222 at Villers Bocage.

Scott
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:37 AM   #54
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This matter is getting increasingly difficult to reply with 100% certainty, and I've done a bit of research on this matter in the past month or two. Patrick Agte places Wittmann at VB with Tigers 221, 222, 223, 233, and 234, as well as his own - which can't be right, because Wittmann's Tiger 205 broke down en route to Normandy and was not at VB. George Forty puts Wttmann at VB with Tigers 211, 221, 222, 223, 233, and 234. And to make it more interesting, Paul Carrell identifies Balthasar Woll as being there, whom he identifies as Wittmann's gunner... when Woll had graduated, so to speak, to commanding his own Tiger, namely 212.

The photographs I have seen show this: the tank Wittmann used at VB and abandoned after it was damaged very much appears to have been equipped with a monocular gun sight. A picture of Woll's tank (212) taken outside Morgny on 07 June 1944 shows it had a monocular sight. There is an excellent picture of 232, taken in either May or early June 1944, showing that it had a binocular sight. Finally, there is a sequence of photographs showing a second company Tiger with the last digit being a "2" towing 231 on/about 14 or 15 June 1944 outside VB. This Tiger has a binocular sight, but it has a different loader's turret hatch than 232, Some publications identify this tank as 212 (its number is obscured by its crew), but again, Woll's tank appeared to have a monocular sight. It could be 232, but that would mean that its loader's hatch would have had to have been replaced. So, this would tend to indicate that this towing Tiger must be 222 - assuming no major turret repairs to any Tiger in the intervening time.

Then, to add even more confusion, according to Col. Wolfgang Schneider, Sowa was credited with destroying two British tanks at VB on 13 June 1944. The obvious question is, if he wasn't in his own tank (222), then in whose was he, and why? Since Wittmann was arguably without his own Tiger that day, and if he took over Sowa's tank and then sent Sowa to warn Moebius or otherwise organize the defense, Sowa would likely not have been in a tank at all and likely would not have resorted to a Panzerfaust or two to attack British armor...

This is a very abbreviated version of what I've found, and defer to all to comment and/or make their own minds on the matter. As I've alluded to earlier, if Woll was at Point 213 outside VB with Wittmann, this would strongly indicate that Tiger 212 was at the scene, because there is little reason for Woll to have not been there without it. If Wittmann did take Sowa's tank, then there must be an explanation for Sowa being credited with destroying two British tanks that day, as well as an explanation or assumption that Tiger 232 had its loader's hatch replaced. With all the participants long dead and conflicting accounts as to who was there, perhaps some maintenance records might surface one day that provide a more precise indication of the whereabouts of 2nd Company's Tigers on that day.... In the interim, I'm personally increasingly leaning towards Wittmann commandeering Woll's tank (212) and asking Woll to act as his gunner during that "solo" action...

I've pointed out where I've found key pieces of information - the interpretations and thus mistakes in analysis are mine.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MG-Freak View Post
Hi Guys,

Maybe it was already posted here. If not.....this is a docu about what happend with Michael Wittmanns tank. How he got killed.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uCKhIkAgec

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiF2XXVyO90

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlzvtYfczQ

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epnoe2r10iY

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj97_pTIT1E

Cheers
Erwin
Thanks a lot for the links Erwin. The story of Wittmann rests, his battlefied burying by some wss comrades always intrigues and fastinated me.
I am interested (as many others) in any kind of archives, pictures, videos... about the discovery, recovery, identification, and burial process of Wittmann's rests in 1983.
In one of the Youtube vídeos it is said that he was wearing his tunic and collar tabs...
I have surf the web but I could not find any info about these matters.
Thanks
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Always looking for nice M35/40 Sz 66 DD/SD decal helmets & 250 Span.Div.items
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:37 PM   #56
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A great print done by Barry Spicer of Wittmann
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File Type: jpg Wittmanns_Tiger_1_in_Villers-Bocage.jpg (46.3 KB, 812 views)
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:59 PM   #57
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War

I beleive Whittmann's tank no was 007, & he was take out by a British Gunner JOE EDKINS

Joe edkins was in a Sherman firefly & is credited with whittmann's Death.


Mike..
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Wittmann
Old 12-16-2012, 09:18 AM   #58
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Hi ,
I think you are confusing two different actions that Wittmann was in, the Villers-Bocage action mentioned in all the above threads is where he is the Company commander of the 2nd company, in Tiger 2xx (see the above threads), whereas several weeks later he is now the s101 battalion commander and is indeed in 007, the battalion commanders Tiger.

cheers lennard
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:15 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennard View Post
Hi ,
I think you are confusing two different actions that Wittmann was in, the Villers-Bocage action mentioned in all the above threads is where he is the Company commander of the 2nd company, in Tiger 2xx (see the above threads), whereas several weeks later he is now the s101 battalion commander and is indeed in 007, the battalion commanders Tiger.

cheers lennard
Yes, Lennard is right. We are trying to determine which tank Wittmann was in at Villers Bocage, not which tank he was in when he was killed.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:36 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blau250 View Post
Thanks a lot for the links Erwin. The story of Wittmann rests, his battlefied burying by some wss comrades always intrigues and fastinated me.
I am interested (as many others) in any kind of archives, pictures, videos... about the discovery, recovery, identification, and burial process of Wittmann's rests in 1983.
In one of the Youtube vídeos it is said that he was wearing his tunic and collar tabs...
I have surf the web but I could not find any info about these matters.
Thanks

In June and July 1986 I received the following information from the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge e.V. (German War Graves Commission), in reply to a request for detailed information about the field grave of Wittmann and his crew (excerpts translated from the reply in German; my additions in brackets):
>>
1. The pistol found in the grave was a Walther Model 2, cal. 6.35mm, date of production no longer recognizable.
>>
2. The remains were identified through the identification tag of a crewmember [Heinrich Reimers], and by dental records. One of the upper jaws contained a gold bridge with five porcelain teeth fixed at two crowns. Wittmann's widow confirmed that her husband had worn a bridge of this type due to a traffic accident.
>>
3. The remains of the five crewmembers were so smashed and mixed when found, that they could not be entirely separated [and so were buried together in one grave at La Cambe]. Through forensic analysis, the heights of two of the men were estimated at 179cm and 172cm.
>>
4. The following items were found in the grave, in addition to the pistol:
a. Remains of black Panzer uniforms,
b. Belt buckle with inscription "Meine Ehre heißt Treue",
c. Earpiece of headphones,
d. Remains of officer's braid (from collar patch), remains of officer's belt buckle, leather jacket, leather gear, belt, and uniform buttons,
e. ID tag with the inscription --1391-- 1.K.E.K. (SS.V.T. on reverse), identified to SS-Unterscharführer Heinrich Reimers, 2nd Komp., s.SS-Pz.Abt. 101.
>>
Geoff Walden
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