wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Uniforms and Equipment > Achtung Panzer! Forum

Achtung Panzer! Forum This forum is designated to discuss the equipment, battles and people of the Panzertruppe.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 10-09-2012, 08:39 AM   #16
tracman
Member
 
tracman is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 226
Default

Thank you for that: clearly, there is new analysis out there (and I must confess to not - yet - having read No Holding Back by Brian Reid - but it's on order) that requires all of this be revisited. The layout of the fields has changed, as has the fauna and the like, but the topography remains broadly the same. As such, one key issue would be to definitively identify the firing positions of individual tanks, and Ekins' has - to date - been rather well documented. From it, one can clearly see the location where Wittmann's tank is believed to have been destroyed, but it would indeed have been a difficult shot, albeit against the relatively weaker side armor...

Thanks also for giving me a reason to revisit that area, which I will now have to do again. Ekins is credited with knocking out four Tigers that charged on the eastern side of the N179 towards Gaumesnil from his position near Les Jardinets, and three other Tigers charged on the west side of the road. Wittmann's was on the east side of the road when it was destroyed, and many will recall that his remains - and the exact position of his tank when destroyed - didn't really come to light until 1982. It is also my understanding that the Sherbrooke Fusiliers' original daily log book was destroyed and only rewritten ex-post-facto, based on the memories of those involved.

There was a LOT of armor fighting that day: indeed, the whole Delle de la Roque sector was heavily fought over, and the burned out remains of both sides' tanks littered the landscape after the battle. And of course, at the time, Allied armor commanders and gunners didn't really care who commanded what enemy tank, only that they knocked them out...

So, again, my thanks for pointing me towards new review and analysis of this engagement. Fortunately, we can now generally all agree which specific Tiger Wittmann used at VB, and which one he died in...

Quote:
Originally Posted by recceboy View Post
There were two historians who(Norm Christie & Janne Drouleete (sp) , with a lot of research with the french historian a Wittman expert who has completed lots of research on this battle, air photos, survey teams, located the positions of all units British, Canadian & German that engaged in the action. Ekins engaged the 4 Tigers that were seen from his point shooting down hill no futher than 800m, and the Sherbrooks engaged the 5th with a flank shot at 243m, which was found out to have been Wittman's ride.

This was done with History Channel for the battlefield Mysteries series a few years ago. With interveiws from veterans, makes for a good watch .

Check it out on youtube.

Anthony
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-09-2012, 10:08 AM   #17
Carlos Quintana
Association Member
 
Carlos Quintana's Avatar
 
Carlos Quintana is offline
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: davie,fl
Posts: 1,085
Default

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE SEEN THESE BUT IT MAY HELP WITH YOUR PAINTING.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...3ABundesarchiv
__________________
I LIKE 1/6 SCALE MILITARY FIGURES!
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-12-2012, 10:08 PM   #18
wolfslair44
Association Member
 
wolfslair44 is online now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Quintana View Post
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE SEEN THESE BUT IT MAY HELP WITH YOUR PAINTING.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...3ABundesarchiv
Carlos - Thanks so much for sharing.

Hard to describe, but I am looking to have Wittman 'above' the battlefield (almost looking down) on his attack, in 222, at VB. Right now, I am having a painting commissioned of Rudolf Von Ribbentrop's attack at Kharkov. Then, will be the Wittman. Going to take some time, but will post some once they are completed.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-14-2012, 10:04 PM   #19
12thPanzer
Member
 
12thPanzer's Avatar
 
12thPanzer is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,590
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by recceboy View Post
There were two historians who(Norm Christie & Janne Drouleete (sp) , with a lot of research with the french historian a Wittman expert who has completed lots of research on this battle, air photos, survey teams, located the positions of all units British, Canadian & German that engaged in the action. Ekins engaged the 4 Tigers that were seen from his point shooting down hill no futher than 800m, and the Sherbrooks engaged the 5th with a flank shot at 243m, which was found out to have been Wittman's ride.

This was done with History Channel for the battlefield Mysteries series a few years ago. With interveiws from veterans, makes for a good watch .

Check it out on youtube.

Anthony


I saw the show too Anthony, it is one of the most clear and factual representations of this battle that I have seen. It is highly unlikely that the Yeomanry had taken out Wittmans tank specifically. They were certainly in range of the others, but not Wittmans. The Sherbrooke's had a clear shot over the wall at Wittman, and were in close range. Even though the nobody can say exactly who/when Wittmans tank was hit, there are people who saw it explode and the turret fall to the ground. Also, it was found that impact damage was found at the left rear cooling grid of 007....exactly the side where the Sherbrooke's were positioned to fire at, with a low-trajectory firing angle that fits perfectly. The ammo/fuel would have then ignited, blowing the turret.

Oh...and the Sherbrooke tanks were 143 meters from Wittmanns tank, not 243, to be ridiculously precise! Very close, no matter.
They pretty much proved it was not probable that it could have been a Typhoon that KO'd it too, which puts that theory to rest. Overall an interesting yet sad ending.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-16-2012, 06:18 PM   #20
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12thPanzer View Post
Overall an interesting yet sad ending.
I personally don't see his demise as sad at all. I'll raise a toast to the Sherbrookes who brewed him up instead.

Where the iron meets the steel the best men won that day.

The show was very well done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RWAM...eature=related
  Reply With Quote

Wittman used 212 in Villers Bocage
Old 10-20-2012, 03:42 PM   #21
kwk088
New Member
 
kwk088 is offline
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: sweden
Posts: 7
Default Wittman used 212 in Villers Bocage

Please end this #222 nonsense and stop repeating the error.
It is by now established that he used #212 in VB.
Comparing the zimm/color pattern at the knocked out Tiger said to be Wittman’s with photos of #212 match.

Tons of thread in this matter is to be found, just do a search on VB and Yann J and Kenny and information like this pop out:

http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?postid=4970

Kind regards
Kent
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-20-2012, 08:49 PM   #22
panzer nco
Member
 
panzer nco's Avatar
 
panzer nco is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 371
War

Hope this help's ... And i do beleive Joe Ekins did the Job on Mr Wittmann, I have done a bit of research on this & his tank no was 007.


A MODEST British war veteran has finally been credited with killing the German tank commander Michael Wittmann, known as the Black Baron.


Evidence has emerged which proves Trooper Joe Ekins fired the shot that ended the Nazi’s reign of terror.


Historians have argued for more than 60 years over who killed the Baron after the Canadian army, Polish forces and the RAF each claimed credit for the kill in northern France.
Wittmann was a household name in Hitler’s Germany after claiming to have destroyed 138 Allied tanks. But he met his match when he came up against Mr Ekins, of Rushden, Northants, who was serving with the 1st Northampton Yeomanry.


Historians who spent two years researching the battle on August 8, 1944, believe Mr Ekins was the only tank gunner within range of the Black Baron. And his Sherman Firefly tank was the only one fitted with a gun powerful enough to take out the *German’s heavily armoured Tiger.
Widower Mr Ekins, now 86, yesterday welcomed the solving of the 66-year-old mystery, adding that the 30-year-old Baron “deserved to die”.


He said: “In a battlefield I don’t think anyone can really be 100 per cent certain what happened but most historians now seem pretty sure it was me. I volunteered to fight when I was 17 because I saw the dreadful things the Nazis were doing across Europe.


“I felt that anybody who supported the Nazis or who stood by and watched were criminals and I still believe that. Every day this Black Baron guy went out to kill people and when he knocked someone out he put a ring on his gun.


“When he was coming towards me I didn’t know who he was or his *reputation.
“I’ve got no regrets. He deserved to die and I am glad I was the guy who did it.” Soon after the war the 4th Canadian Armoured Division claimed its forces killed the Baron. Later the 1st Polish Armoured Division and 144 Regiment Royal Armoured Corps also tried to claim credit.


Even the RAF got in on the act, claiming a rocket fired from a Hawker Typhoon from Second Tactical Air Force hit Wittmann’s tank. Thomas Dormer, of Battlefield History TV, which has made a documentary called Wittmann v Ekins: Death Of A Panzer Ace, said: “It took us two years of research to get enough facts to make the film. Joe is an ordinary guy who was in an extraordinary place and did an extraordinary thing.”
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-20-2012, 10:05 PM   #23
wolfslair44
Association Member
 
wolfslair44 is online now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzer nco View Post
Hope this help's ... And i do beleive Joe Ekins did the Job on Mr Wittmann, I have done a bit of research on this & his tank no was 007.


A MODEST British war veteran has finally been credited with killing the German tank commander Michael Wittmann, known as the Black Baron.


Evidence has emerged which proves Trooper Joe Ekins fired the shot that ended the Nazi’s reign of terror.


Historians have argued for more than 60 years over who killed the Baron after the Canadian army, Polish forces and the RAF each claimed credit for the kill in northern France.
Wittmann was a household name in Hitler’s Germany after claiming to have destroyed 138 Allied tanks. But he met his match when he came up against Mr Ekins, of Rushden, Northants, who was serving with the 1st Northampton Yeomanry.


Historians who spent two years researching the battle on August 8, 1944, believe Mr Ekins was the only tank gunner within range of the Black Baron. And his Sherman Firefly tank was the only one fitted with a gun powerful enough to take out the *German’s heavily armoured Tiger.
Widower Mr Ekins, now 86, yesterday welcomed the solving of the 66-year-old mystery, adding that the 30-year-old Baron “deserved to die”.


He said: “In a battlefield I don’t think anyone can really be 100 per cent certain what happened but most historians now seem pretty sure it was me. I volunteered to fight when I was 17 because I saw the dreadful things the Nazis were doing across Europe.


“I felt that anybody who supported the Nazis or who stood by and watched were criminals and I still believe that. Every day this Black Baron guy went out to kill people and when he knocked someone out he put a ring on his gun.


“When he was coming towards me I didn’t know who he was or his *reputation.
“I’ve got no regrets. He deserved to die and I am glad I was the guy who did it.” Soon after the war the 4th Canadian Armoured Division claimed its forces killed the Baron. Later the 1st Polish Armoured Division and 144 Regiment Royal Armoured Corps also tried to claim credit.


Even the RAF got in on the act, claiming a rocket fired from a Hawker Typhoon from Second Tactical Air Force hit Wittmann’s tank. Thomas Dormer, of Battlefield History TV, which has made a documentary called Wittmann v Ekins: Death Of A Panzer Ace, said: “It took us two years of research to get enough facts to make the film. Joe is an ordinary guy who was in an extraordinary place and did an extraordinary thing.”
I'm not sure any of that actually assists with crediting Ekins with the score. If you watch the History Channel's link below, I think there's pretty overwhelming evidence to support the Sherbrooke's knocking out MW.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-20-2012, 10:07 PM   #24
wolfslair44
Association Member
 
wolfslair44 is online now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwk088 View Post
Please end this #222 nonsense and stop repeating the error.
It is by now established that he used #212 in VB.
Comparing the zimm/color pattern at the knocked out Tiger said to be Wittman’s with photos of #212 match.

Tons of thread in this matter is to be found, just do a search on VB and Yann J and Kenny and information like this pop out:

http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?postid=4970

Kind regards
Kent
Anyone else agree that 212 is the tank he was in at the battle of VB?
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 10:29 AM   #25
peterm
Association Member
 
peterm's Avatar
 
peterm is online now
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 5,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
I personally don't see his demise as sad at all. I'll raise a toast to the Sherbrookes who brewed him up instead.

Where the iron meets the steel the best men won that day.
Many thanks for this statement! I'll keep it in mind when I will see killed GI's on TV again!

And I can only say: one of the best man DIED that day!

Peter
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 11:27 AM   #26
Luciusdegeer
Member
 
Luciusdegeer's Avatar
 
Luciusdegeer is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Low Countries
Posts: 999
Default

I don't like this gloating over the terrible death of a tank soldier ('brewed up'). Anyone who knows about armoured warfare can imagine the horror of such an end. One step further would be to make fun of Dresden, that also was 'brewed up' for a 'just cause'.
A veteran could justly say 'it was him or me' or 'he killed my comrades', but people of a younger generation (like us) should not refer to this horror with witty remarks. No need for propaganda language here. I feel pity for the soldiers that Wittman killed in his destructive raid at Villers-Bocage, just like for Wittman and his crew.

Lucius

P.S. Vistited M.W.'s grave last august. Always fresh flowers there. I sat on the stone bench some meters away, and a young woman approached the grave and stood there for 10 minutes. Coincidence? Admiration? Pity? Difficult to tell.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #27
12thPanzer
Member
 
12thPanzer's Avatar
 
12thPanzer is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,590
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
I personally don't see his demise as sad at all. I'll raise a toast to the Sherbrookes who brewed him up instead.

Where the iron meets the steel the best men won that day.

The show was very well done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RWAM...eature=related
I dont exactly believe in your way of thinking Loyyd, but I have much respect for the men who Wittmann killed at VB.
However, I think any man of honor that dies in battle, no matter the country they fight for, is a sad thing. They all had families and as history would have it, the men on both sides were there to do the same thing.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 02:57 PM   #28
peterm
Association Member
 
peterm's Avatar
 
peterm is online now
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 5,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciusdegeer View Post
A veteran could justly say 'it was him or me' or 'he killed my comrades', but people of a younger generation (like us) should not refer to this horror with witty remarks. No need for propaganda language here. I feel pity for the soldiers that Wittman killed in his destructive raid at Villers-Bocage, just like for Wittman and his crew.

Lucius
Hi!

I absolutely agree with You, Lucius!

Kind regards, Peter
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 03:11 PM   #29
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterm View Post
Many thanks for this statement! I'll keep it in mind when I will see killed GI's on TV again!

And I can only say: one of the best man DIED that day!

Peter
You're most welcome. Es macht mir schieß egal. I have no oath of honor to uphold to Wittmann or the Waffen-SS. While I'm grateful to J.Peiper for saving my Uhr-Uncle in the 320th I dont feel the need to rush to his defense. Who did Wittmann save in your family? I find research into Wittmann interesting such as this thread detailing his track during the VB engagement while I find his fans who ardently click their sneakers, sandals or hiking boots for him a rather lazy eyed lot. The last time I checked he left his Tigers in VB and hoofed it. Not my idea of success anymore than the stupidity of crossing on open field with built up areas and treelines a bright shining success story. His lack of leadership that day took more than just his life. But go ahead, defend your hero. My hero blew him away. The BEST soldiers won WW2. Not the other way around or history would be vastly different. My Opa would've told you the same thing but then he had the perspective of war from 1939 to 1945 returning from Soviet captivity in 1956.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 03:28 PM   #30
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

I will add this. There are many wartime graves in my hometown of Michelfeld and I have honored those dead from the time I was little to the the last time I was there to bury my Onkel and I listened to the band play 'Ich hatt einen Kameraden'. Our little town paid a heavy price in three wars. I know the last names well.

I dont feel the need to place flowers on this mans grave. That is my perogative, perspective and personal opinion. I served in the military in the infantry and carry a lot generations of fighting men before me and I have buried veterans including my best friend. Some of those relatives lost a war that cost the lives of millions. I am not a young man with a young mans persepective.

I will leave you with my Opa's one word response to me when I was a child asking about war = "senseless'
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com