Is Japanese Militaria ever going to 'take off'

[mravery]

Hey guys,



Just trying to start an open discussion in regards to the Japanese militaria collection arena....



I have 'dabbled' in the Japanese stuff for a few years but not very heavy. One thing that I have noticed (to me anyway) is that it appears then the market for the Japanese stuff is not that 'hot' ....... When it comes to the German stuff.... if it has a Swastika on it... it grabs other collectors interest with all the 'ooooos and aaaaaaas'.... but when it's Japanese.... there always seems to be 'ho-hum'...



Prices also don't seem as volatile with the Jap stuff as there is with the German..... The price for a Japanese cap is about the same now as it was 3 years ago... with the German caps... prices seem to go up monthly......



My thoughts are that this is due to a couple of things.....



1) The demand and interest in items seems to be in direct relation to the available references on the topic .... and currently I think the references on Japanese items is far and few in-between.



2) The 'language barrier'. Even though German is a foreign language, there are still translators (on-line) that can assist with the reading and research. With the use of the Japanese characters.... translating is a much more complex effort.



3) Quality of the items. Most of the German items are well made and high quality whereas the Japanese items (most) pale in comparison.



Well.... these are my 'two cents' and I would be curious as to the thoughts of other collectors.



Cheers

Mark

[kfields]

I think I would have agreed with you 5 years ago but not today. For example, Japanese helmets have skyrocketed in price. A complete, unmessed with Japanese helmet in EXCELLENT condition will put you back in excess of 600 bucks. A complete Japanese rifle that has matching, mummed, monopod, aa sites, etc in reasonably good shape will put you back over 500 bucks. A standard Japanese leather infantry belt with cartridge boxes in excess of 300 bucks. Have you priced an original Japanese rifle sling lately? Yikes!!!

On the other hand you might say these prices aren't bad compared to German stuff and that is true but the good Japanese stuff has climbed to their current price heights in a very short time and I think they will continue to climb.
Good stuff always sells and brings a premium and I expect the good Japanese stuff will blow past the current price levels and continue to climb in price.
Grab the best you can afford while you can. Kim

[Mr. Blades]

Hi Mark,

I have a couple of Japanese items and tend to agree with you. I've never seen many cloth caps but the ones I do see don't seem to be too expensive.
The Japanese helmets that are in good condition seem to be gaining in value at least from what I've seen at local shows..........I guess Mums just don't hold the mystique that the swaz does..........RICK

[J.Warren]

I hope it doesn't take off so I can keep getting stuff at good prices. I've been out of collecting for about 5 years and decided to get back in. I was going to pick up where I left off, with SS material. I was totally amazed what SS material was selling for. Look at the "Dachau tabs". They are literally all over the place and bringing STUPID money. Also, can a collector of SS material ever have 100% piece of mind that the items in their collection aren't messed with or fake? Only very few who have themselves purchased directly from vets. With Japanese material, you can have piece of mind and decent prices along with the great history of the material.

[MikeP]

I think a factor is that the vast majority of japanese souveniers were weapons.

I spent the early 60's scouring the countryside for relics.

There was about anything german you could think of.

The Japanese stuff consisted mainly of ground rfles, bayonets, pistols, and common swords.

Other things were found but statstically insignificant compared to german stuff.

I think it was a lot easier to pick up german items from piles and dumps during and after the war.

A lot of Jap stuff was in badly worn condition and a lot was on bloody dead bodies.

I remember wantinf a NVA buckle in RVN-1st one I had the opportunity to get was on a fresh bleeding corpse-I left it in place.

Just some thoughts.

[Jareth]

Japanese will rise accordingly with the German militaria...it just wont ever surpass it. Like Kim said, mint Japanese helmets have exceeded the $900. mark. That's great compared to a single decal German army helmet! How many Jap. helmets (nice army, not civilian) do you see at any given show as compared to German? Much rarer, just not as desirible...yet. Scarce navy caps are going way up & are next to impossible to find off of ebay. Japanese were more frugal in their graphic military sense. No numerous decals for every branch of service, no daggers for everyone but their medals (especially high orders) were very high design. I really like the late war, crude equipment as it has real character. What went on at the end was quite different compared to the European theater. Like I already said Japanese militaria IS going up in value but I doubt it will ever have the same appeal as the German. With that said, I'd never go back to German again! Way to much repros & crooks out there.

[A.E. Hamilton]

For those that don't think prices of rarer Japanese items are staying static, they aren't watching the market. An example is a mis-matched Type 14 with a rare date sold for over 14k at auction last week.

There are a couple, IMO, of reasons for prices to appear static.

There are fewer collectors of Japanese items.

The Japanese items are seldom flashy with some higher order medals being the exception and the lack of information or knowledgable collectors/dealers keeps some prices down.

You seldom if ever find any real rarity at the shows and even relatively common items such as helmets are seldom seen.

As example of escalating prices-some 15 years ago I purchased (after much soul searching and opinions that I was nuts) a Type 98 reflector gun sight and paid $600 for it. Today that sight would be in the 10-15k bracket. I use to buy dog tags for $2 or $3 and now they bring $30 to $50 which is a fairly substantial increase. I will tell you that if I wanted to look at my Japanese militaria as an investment (which I don't because the values get scary and it is just setting around) that I have done much better than my real estate, stocks or bond investment. Other examples are that a pair of Japanes naval flights boots of any kind would fetch 5K and unfortunately I don't have a pair. An naval aviators float vest would set you back at leat 2.5k and german comparable items are not close in value to this from what I have seen.

I won't get into the quality discussion except to say that I will compare ft and finish (not flash) of earlier Japanese items against any other country including Germany.

[nutmeg]

Gentlemen,


Prices of military collectibles are most effected by movies. You can see what "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers" did for Normandy and Airborne related items. When Spielberg's film on Iwo Jima comes out, Japanese and USMC items will go thru the roof.

The other reason Japanese items are not as popular is that there is not as much variety to collect as the German. Few regimental distinctions, etc. Most Japanese infantry dressed the same.

[Doug See]

The Japanese militaria market is a sleeper; quietly growing and becoming more and more appreciated. I've collected Japanese for 40 years, on and off and have seen the prices have rise greatly over the years. While I've collected Imperial Iron Crosses and US WW2 weapons on a small but serious scale over the last few years, I always seem to have an ongoing interest in Japanese and always have a small collection of Pacific Theater items on hand. I grew up in a neighborhood full of WW2 vets back in the 50's and 60's and it was common for us neighborhood boys to play army with our fathers souvenirs (if we could get away with it), so Arisakas and Type 30 bayonets were part of my childhood. In my opinion, WW2 Japanese militaria, while more simple and utilitarian than German items, is rarer and for the most part, has more actual battle history behind it than much of the WW2 German militaria being traded today.

The Japanese and German militaria markets, or rather the sources of items for those markets, are slightly different. The Japanese market consisted mainly of items picked up during battles on Pacific islands, or brought home shortly after the war from Japan by occupying troops. After the war, the battlefields of the Pacific and in China, were not easily accessable to souvenir hunters. Up until recently, with the growth of eBay and sellers from Japan, not much new was coming in to the US in the way of Japanese uniforms and gear.

On the other hand, German items were available all over Europe during and for years after the war. There are probably still German items tucked away in bulidings, warehouses, or homes. We know that some items are being robbed from graves in Europe and Russia. The demand for and availability of Nazi medals, badges, hats, helmets and other regalia was and is huge.

Another difference is in the fakes and reproductions area. While reproductions and fakes of Japanese militaria exist, that market is not as lucrative and widespread a disease as it is in WW2 German militaria. Faked badges, medals, helmets and unforms have been being inserted into the German militaria markets for years. This criminal activity has expanded into the Imperial German market as well. The paranoia factor in collecting Japanese is not as high as in TR collecting and I think that attracts more and more collectors tired of of all the BS encountered in collecting German items. While 90% of TR collectors have a true interest in military history, plus a desire to care for historical artifacts, the collecting of TR items tends to attract more than it's share of the "fringe". The attraction is usually the ability to make a fast buck or to associate with symbols of an evil empire. Publicized WWII grave-robbing activities, the manufacture and fraudulent sale of high-dollar counterfeit Nazi and concentration camp regalia, and certain current political and gang activities in Europe and the US have also cast a shadow on the hobby. Sadly, these negative implications are often wrongly transferred to the honest collector or student of history. Even though the Japanese displayed terrible cruelty during WW2, collecting Japanese WW2 items does not seem to have the negative connotations collecting TR does. All of this has helped the prices for Japanese militaria grow steadily.

The market for WW2 Japanese weapons has become segmented. In the '60's and '70's, Japanese rifles went for $35-50 IF you could find someone to buy them. In the past 15 to 20 years, with the publication of more collector's references, prices of nice Japanese pistols, swords, bayonets and rifles have increased many times over. The influx of junk from Asian surplus in the '80's and '90's slowed the price increases for a while, but the demand for nice untouched souvenired weapons is pretty high again. Nowadays, a nice T99 with mum, aircraft sights, and monopod goes for $350 and up, if you can find them. "Junker" T99's and T38's (defaced mums, no pods, unmatched bolts) are still common at gun shows and usually tagged at $150-$275, but I doubt they actually sell for anywhere near that. Japanese helmets were rarely seen at shows in the '60's, 70's and '80's. With the price increases seen on eBay in the past few years, they are now coming out of the woodwork, but still rare. While Japanese helmets are all pretty much the same, except for netting and covers, the prices on complete ones in nice shape now exceed the average non-decal German M40 and M42's.

Collecting Japanese militaria is still done on a smaller scale than the German and US WW2 markets. But an increase in reference books for the collector, a better appreciation of the Japanese' ability to build large quantities of very utilitarian but high quality weapons with very limited resources, and the relative rarity of souvenired Japanese militaria have maintained the slow, quiet and steady growth in collecting Japanese militaria. In addition, I think many Japanese collectors also collect U.S. Pacific Theater items. USMC collecting is a huge field in itself and a perfect "go-with" to Japanese. Who would have thought back in the 1960's that dad's old M1 pot with a camo USMC cover and EGA stencil would be selling for over $700 nowadays??

I don't think Japanese militaria will ever "take off", but it will remain a very interesting hobby which attracts it's share of dedicated collectors and historians. Prices will continue to rise steadily for quality pieces. Except for the uniforms, which are more easily faked, I don't think we will see the huge preponderance of bad pieces that we see in Third Reich militaria and this will help prices and attract collectors and dealers. It's an interesting and addictive hobby. Let's continue to keep it our secret.

What WAS the question?

[mravery]

Hey Guys,

I can't speak in regards to the guns... or the combat stuff... because I'm more of the 'brite and shiney' guy.. with interest in the parade and dress stuff.....which no one has commented on yet

I collect the General's grade stuff... and in comparison to the German items.. the Jap stuff is at about 30-40% of the price.... and is not as common...

And I remember that the higher grades of the orders were always expensive and that the lower grades were always cheap and avaiable. I think if I did a search on ebay right now for 'rising sun' orders... I would find at least 6-12 in the lower grades... cased !

Is there just no interest in the parade and dress items for Japanese militaria and that the only collecting direction is the combat stuff ?

I wonder if there are any good reference materials (in English) that are in the process of being published... as I think that might give the stuff a boost...

Cheers
Mark

[Jareth]

Mark, I think there's much more interest in WW2 period Generals' tunics. Those few that are original, named & not put togeather are more desirible than the early, heavy gold stitched/embroidered dress tunics. More of them survived & are around. I does come down to personal interest though. I do know of a book in the works on Japanese Navy Landing Force uniforms, caps, helmets etc. I believe it will be published by Osprey & have photos which I prefer over those dang illustrations there known for. There's a new Spielberg (Flags Of Our Fathers)movie & perhaps a mini series (ala Band Of Brothers) about the pacific war that I'm sure will help increase interest in Japanese militaria.

[A.E. Hamilton]

There is a Japanese soft cover book of 600 pages that is Vol 1 and contains pictures of items in collections in Japan. Unfortunately all but 4 pages are in black and white and all text is Japanese. It has four pictures per page so there is over 2300 pictures. Many pictures have more than one item. The cost was pretty high as I recall, about $100. I don't know if there is a volume 2. The lack of knowledge of the items is the main reason that I started collecting Japanese militaria. You make discoveries quite often and your knowledge can pay nice dividends.
Example-this last weekend I went to a gunshow for the first time in over a year. I was talking to a dealer who always sets up with three or more tables of Japanese stuff and travels the west coast when he asked me if I was interested in purchasing a shoulder strap for a Type 14 holster. I told him I would look and he pulled it out from under a pile of stuff. He said that he wanted $50 for it. It was rolled up in a plastic bag and I could see that it was well worn. I unrolled it to make sure it wasn't torn and noticed that it had welted edges. I paid the $50 and smiled while doing so. The welted edges means that it is a strap for a papa rig and they are extremely difficult to find. I only had one other and it has a field repair.

There were actually a lot of nice rifles and pistols at the show as Hogan had purchased a collection from an advanced collector and was selling off all the items other than just the cream of the collection. I thought the prices were reasonable.

[Jody]

Hello,
First of all when it comes to Japanese militaria, the following items always seem to do well-Samurai swords, helmets, and weapons. Look at what Nambus have done recently. Japanese awards tend to be rather slow.

I bet when HBO comes out with that new miniseries Flags of our Fathers Japanese items will get a boost. I guess that crappy movie Windtalkers didn't help things.

The burning question for me, is when will Italian WWII items take off?

Regards,
Jody

[cbuehler]

I think it a combination of all of the excellent observations stated in previous posts that makes Japanese militaria somewhat of an underdog, and all Pacific theater material for that matter.
It was a different war fought in remote, sweaty areas that the average American cant relate to.
There wasnt the spiffy uniforms and insignia that was used in the ETO.
There wasnt the shear volume of equipment etc.
And the average American still knows next to nothing about Japan.
I do notice a growing interest in combat pickup material though. Mint Japanese uniforms and equipment looks pretty plain and is fairly common yet.
The "real" thing from the field with all its dirt and wear is what I look for in Japanese material. And it is quite reasonable price wise.
Other than naval aviation stuff, there hasnt been a very steep price rise over the years for Japanese militaria in America. In Japan of course it is substantially more expensive.
I tend to think that there will never be an explosion in demand and prices for the majority of Japanese militaria. It just doesnt have the intrinsic ingredients that make certain things desireable to most. I like it though!

Conrad

[Doug See]

Originally Posted by Jody Beltram

Hello,
First of all when it comes to Japanese militaria, the following items always seem to do well-Samurai swords, helmets, and weapons. Look at what Nambus have done recently. Japanese awards tend to be rather slow.

I bet when HBO comes out with that new miniseries Flags of our Fathers Japanese items will get a boost. I guess that crappy movie Windtalkers didn't help things.

The burning question for me, is when will Italian WWII items take off?

Regards,
Jody

I think The Thin Red Line did boost prices a little, but not much. I was watching Japanese items on eBay closely around the time that came out, and it's my impression that NCO swords, bayonets and helmets jumped a little. NCO swords really took off on eBay in the past 5 years. Before eBay, they were going for $90-$110 and weren't selling very quickly. Nowadays, even average condition, mismatched ones get bid up to $250 pretty quickly, and the nice ones are going for $400 and up. Japanese bayonets haven't seemed to increase all that much compared to the NCO swords. I think every GI brought one back in 1945, and the occupation GI's were still bringing them back until the 1950's. Pre eBay, they were selling for $35-40 for an average Tokyo or Nagoya marked one, up to $100-120 for a last ditch in wood scabbard. I see the average early to mid-war ones still going for around $45-50 on eBay, and the really nice ones with frogs going for $125-135. Last ditch bayonets were rising quickly until someone imported hundreds of them woth metal and wood scabbards from somewhere in Asia and were selling them reasonably. That tended to temporarily devalue the last ditch bayos. Just some opinions and observations.... The same thing happened to the so-called "rare" maker marked bayos that were in such demand a few years ago. You can usually find one or two Jinsens on eBay at any given time, and Mukdens have become more available recently probably due to the surplus importers.