M 24 ss

[MG34NZ]

Originally Posted by Peter Manzie

Hi Andrew,
Please humor me on this. Let's assume the following: MSM places an order for SS stamping dies from a local supplier and then approves the die in 1940. Then they place a second order for another die in 1940? They instruct the supplier to make the second die to look different...a hand-carved / crude / looking when they already have a nice perfect version? Why?
Peter

Peter,as I said the crudeness is a cause for concern and re reading Dimitar's post he is agreeing with the post war enhancement theory(I misread this first time around so that's my mistake),then again there are others stating they have seen and found these handles so marked,so having misread this than we are obviously still in doubt.some pics of these straight from the ground would be good!
At the end of the day Im giving my view on this and that is exactly that,its my view and others will differ.
Miguels statement regarding variances in stamping is made from observing hundreds of examples and he has seen/handled fare more than I ever will so I have to take his opinion on the variance of stamping on handles as being a reliable observation. for me all the handle markings I have seen could be considered "text book" yes some differences between dies but all neat and uniform in appearance but I have only handled (in person) maybe 150 handles but studied many in pictures again all neat and uniform in appearance BUT this is my observation and view only.
For me right or wrong if give a choice of a nice neat and even marked handle or a crude looking one the nice neat one would win all day long.

Theory on the die...And its is just a theory.Maybe, just maybe the handles were subcontracted elsewhere,maybe a crude die was made as a stop gap measure or repair after being damaged? maybe the handles were marked post production to fill the contract?? Hard to say and all just guess work look at Rinker produced handles,endless variants of markings however ALL are nice and neat looking so again its still another theory and we may never be 100% sure.Interested to hear what Jeensey thinks if he is out there

Indeed an interesting thread

Regards
Andrew

Andrew

[Peter Manzie]

Originally Posted by Grossfuss

Peter,
Can you do a comparison of all three examples shown?
To me it appears that there are two of the crude version, neither of which I'd have thought were worth the trouble of embellishment to increase the value, but just that one superior example.
As the maker is M.S.M. and not a 3-letter code, are there any possibilities in the book mentioned in the Equipment section under the theory it was S (first name). M (surname). and M (town). - e.g. a fictitious S iegfried. M ueller. from M annheim.?
If we knew it all where would be the fun in this game!
An interesting thread,
Grossfuss

I just saw your request. I will do it tomorrow.
Regards, Peter

[dEVIL]

Originally Posted by Peter Manzie

I just saw your request. I will do it tomorrow.
Regards, Peter

Hope you don't mind Peter ...

[Peter Manzie]

Originally Posted by dEVIL

Hope you don't mind Peter ...

No problem. My eye seems to focus on the 4. All three are different.

[Grenademan2005]

Hi again:
The only differences between handle one and handle two is the missing tip on 4 and M.

[Grossfuss]

Thanks for that dEVIL,
Interesting that the two cruder examples were found a long way apart, and, as I said earlier, hardly worth embellishing and so similar as well!
If only they could talk.
All the best,
Grossfuss

[Peter Manzie]

Originally Posted by Grenademan2005

Hi again:
The only differences between handle one and handle two is the missing tip on 4 and M.

Yes, but why are the tips of the other adjacent numbers fully visible? What's going on here????

[Grossfuss]

Just my 2 cents worth (again)!
The similarities in text on the two "crude" handles are remarkable - the different angles of the SS runes, the style of the numbers and the spacing of the M S. M. with only the two full stops?
Curiouser and curiouser!
Cheers,
Grossfuss

[Grossfuss]

P.S.
Just had another look at the war relics forum link and the handle depicted there is the same as the one in Norway and the other one in Russia!
So far the "crude" handles outnumber the Bulgarian by 3 to 1 - odds in their favour I'd say!
I think that's my contribution dried up now - all we need is a definitive answer!
Cheers,
Grossfuss

[Ketil]

I don't have an definite answer, but a few thoughts. I have a handle given to me by someone who found several in the burnt out remains of a German ammuniton storage in Kirkenes Norway. I visited the same place many times in the 1990's and found a lot of cartridges including the 7, 92 with SS markings. Also other comercial headstamps and lots of 7, 63 Mauser pistol cartridges with hs: BKIW NICORRO. Also quite a number of grenades. I have every reason to belive that this storage belonged to the SS.

Kirkenes is today a border town to Russia. In 1940 the border was to Finland. When Norway was occupied by the Germans in april 1940, the fighting never reached Kirkenes and the Norwegian border guard continued their service at the Norwegian-Finnish border. This task was taken over by regular (meaning not Waffen SS) SS troops. Later in 1941 when the Germans attacked Russia they went from Kirkenes through Finland in the North. Later in the war Kirkenes was a very importent place for SS divison Nord, who fought with the Finns in Karelia, where the grenade in the beginning of this tread was found.

I'm no expert on grenades, but collect guns and cartridges. The different SS headstamps on cartridges I find are -if not common- quite often encountered in Kirkenes area and in Finland. Maybe the question is as simple as where were the SS units active?

Just some toughts from me, and not meant as any conclusion.

[Grenademan2005]

Originally Posted by Peter Manzie

Yes, but why are the tips of the other adjacent numbers fully visible? What's going on here????

Nothing, do you think Germans wasted time on marking their items "textbook mark"? I have seen many markings in many different items, ones not totally marked, ones with a very soft pressure so the markings were very faint, with parts missing due to a fail on the tool, without markings, (those of you who think Germans marked 100% of their production are totally wrong), etc.

[Grenademan2005]

Originally Posted by Grossfuss

P.S.
Just had another look at the war relics forum link and the handle depicted there is the same as the one in Norway and the other one in Russia!
So far the "crude" handles outnumber the Bulgarian by 3 to 1 - odds in their favour I'd say!
I think that's my contribution dried up now - all we need is a definitive answer!
Cheers,
Grossfuss

And not the only ones, I have more photos from these SS handles with same and other markings, all of them ground find.

[MG34NZ]

Here is a picture showing two handles from the same manufacturer ( Richard Rinker)but both markings are different to show that differences in the markings do occur.