Alter Kampfer Badge Opinions Please

[Rick C]

Straight on reverse - thanx in advance for your time & comments.

[Craig Gottlieb]

I would like to poll the members to see how many of these zinc badges have been observed. Rick was kind enough to send his badge to me so I could photograph it for my upcoming book. Studying it under a microscope, it appears this badge has the same material construction as other zinc badges, and has lost almost all of what used to be a silver finish similar to the Antipartisan Badge finish that is so often degraded.

Based upon my analysis of the surface under magnification, I personally believe this badge to be original, and believe it to be a Danzig badge proper, though I have no proof - it's only speculation. It will therefore never command the price of an "accepted" Danzig Ehrenzeichen.

Whatever it is, it is definitely not a "Day Badge" because it wouldn't make sense for a Danzig organization to craft a badge modeled after the original in every detail of design. It'd be sort of like the US Army crafting a medal that highly resembled the Purple Heart only a little thinner, and handing it out for participating in a recruiting drive. That said, I have no information on why a zinc Danzig Ehrenzeichen may have been produced, why it wasn't structurally identical to the other one, and why there are so few out there (as I assume there are not many of these).

[TobyR]

Having just stumbled across this thread, I thought I would add my badge.

I have posted it before but it would seem more people are coming round to the idea that these are not tinnies. I can't see it myself and I am also of the belief that my badge (and others like it) is original.

Incidentally, it was acquired from a good friend, quite some years ago now, who told me he had bought it from a one time resident of Danzig who had fled to my friend's town (he lives in the very north of Germany - near the Danish border) during the war. Of course, this is ultimately no more than a story (and we must always buy the item and not the story) but I have no reason to think he was telling me anything other than the truth.

For the record, my badge weighs 16.5g and measures approx. 36mm x 44mm.

Best,
Toby.

Note you can even see the bubbling to the plated surface (swastika and especially, the reverse), due to the reaction with the underlying zinc.

[TobyR]

Notice the wear to the reverse (from, I would imagine, being worn and rubbing against a jacket, or whatever). The actual outer edge of the badge does have most of its finish and you can clearly see the plated layer where it meets the exposed zinc.

[JoeW]

Correlating some "facts" from famous research books with facts from period NSDAP Organisation Books, I find it odd that the authors establish 1939 as the date of institution of this Danzig/Danzig-West Preussen Gau badge as the badge first appears in the first edition NSDAP Org Buch (1936).

Does anyone have an example of the second variation of the Danzig Traditions-Abzeichen that featured the removed background with Alter Kampfer? This version first appeared in the 1938 edition of the Org Book.

[Craig Gottlieb]

I have some new information in my book, which I am editing right now. The final draft is due back to Schiffer, and it's mostly just a typographical read-through. While I have not found the "cut out" version, I did find a couple of additional interesting badges that will be worth looking at.

[TobyR]

Originally Posted by Craig Gottlieb

I have some new information in my book, which I am editing right now. The final draft is due back to Schiffer, and it's mostly just a typographical read-through. While I have not found the "cut out" version, I did find a couple of additional interesting badges that will be worth looking at.

Looking forward to it.

Any further evidence to Chris Ailsby's assertion that the zinc badges, as mine above, are German made?

Similarly, any advances in explaining the significance of the zinc badges? You don't consider them day/meeting badges as Niemann did, do you?

Best,
Toby.

[jabnus]

To add to the confusion, here's my badge. Before anyone says anything about the quality: im on your side and think that compared to especially the silver hallmarked badge from Stan on the previous page, this looks very very inferior. The confusing thing is, it comes from the collection of the late David Littlejohn, who bought this particular badge already in 1953.

There is definately much more to these badges as has been revealed yet in the various reference books. There are also more variations as the silver one, the zinc ones shown here in this topic and the "open or cut out" one. I have seen L/58 marked zinc ones and there is in the NSDAP organisationbook of the NSDAP (which unfortunately i have no acces to at the moment) mention of the Gau Danzig Alte Kampfer badges in two classes. Does anyone have the 1943 edition at hand and can do a scan maybe? It would be of great help for the discussion in this topic.

Also in the 1943 edition of Doehle's "Die Auzeichnungen des Grossdeutschen Reichs" is a picture that resembles the zinc badges. Im not sure anymore and type this from memory, but think this is the particular L/58 marked zinc badge.

What can all those other badges that seem to have been around forever then be? I heard from old collectors that in the early 1950s a number of new badges of the Gau Danzig badges were already around and were made for American soldiers as souvenirs. If this is true and how these look no-one seems to know with certainty, but i feel that a number of the inferior looking badges (especially the zinc ones) may very well be some of those restrikes.

Craig, im very much looking forward to your book and even more so to the sources of your investigations. Hopefully it will answer a lot of our questions regarding these still somewhat misunderstood awards.

Best regards,
Gaston

[jabnus]

Pictures:

[Craig Gottlieb]

I do believe in the zinc badges, and do deal with them.

[rlimike]

How about this one for sale on a dealers website ►►►

[JoeW]

Originally Posted by jabnus

......................................
There is definately much more to these badges as has been revealed yet in the various reference books. There are also more variations as the silver one, the zinc ones shown here in this topic and the "open or cut out" one. I have seen L/58 marked zinc ones and there is in the NSDAP organisationbook of the NSDAP (which unfortunately i have no acces to at the moment) mention of the Gau Danzig Alte Kampfer badges in two classes. Does anyone have the 1943 edition at hand and can do a scan maybe? It would be of great help for the discussion in this topic.

Also in the 1943 edition of Doehle's "Die Auzeichnungen des Grossdeutschen Reichs" is a picture that resembles the zinc badges. Im not sure anymore and type this from memory, but think this is the particular L/58 marked zinc badge. .................................................. .
Best regards,
Gaston

Gaston, the Org Book does not mention two classes of this badges. As I wrote in post #20 above, the 1938 edition of the Org Book d NSDAP introduced mention of a second design/style (Ausfuhrung) of the Gau Danzig badge that eliminated the back ground of the badge within the wreath with the words Alte Kampfer. There is no illustration of this second design in any of the following editions of the Org Book. And, in 1940 the badge was re-titled Gau Danzig-West Preussen.

[TobyR]

Whilst not verifiable provenance, I acquired my badge from a friend of mine in Flensburg. He told me, and I have no reason to doubt him, that he had acquired it from somebody who had left Danzig for Flensburg during the war.