How many PAB's were awarded?

[jurggie]

I've been doing some research on the numbers of badges and medals that have been awarded, and in a number of cases it remains unclear, or the answer I found isn't trustworthy in my opinion.

For example the PAB. According to wikipedia (it's the only source I can find), approximately 35.000 badges have been awarded, of which 22.000 were silver en 12.500 bronze.

That seems completely unrealistic. If you compare it with the Deutsches Kreuz for example of which 28.500 were awarded and is a lot rarer and more expensive.

Are there any other sources that give a better indication?
Personally I think there's no way it could have been less than 150.000 and probably well over 200.000.

[Don D.]

Those old and low numbers have been around for years with no proof or citation. I too think it was a lot higher. How many tankers were in a 1939/40 panzer division? Approx 3000 tanks into France alone with each having a 4-5 man crew. While not every one of them would have earned it on that campaign I would think a high percentage would. Then all the other campaigns......

Too bad no one ever kept track of issuing combat awards.

[peterm]

Originally Posted by Don D.

Approx 3000 tanks into France alone with each having a 4-5 man crew.

That's a little bit too much:

For attacking France in 1940 we had:
955 Panzer II (3 men)
228 Panzer 38t (4 men)
349 Panzer III (5 men)
278 Panzer IV (5 men)

(from: von Senger und Etterlin / "Die deutschen Panzer 1926 - 1945")

But You are both right: the Wikipedia-numbers for issued PAB's must be total nonsense.

Kind regards,

Peter

[Panzercracker]

From a technical standpoint, Peter's figures say that there were 6912 men fielded to man 1810 tanks. Wikipedia may be close with their estimate at 35000 because the guys who fought in France 1940, would go on to fight in other theatres/campaigns. --Rgds, Ken

[Bcarver]

I am also wandering if Wiki may be actually close. Looking at hundreds of panzermen portraits very few are wearing the pab even in 1945. Now I know we have to take into account the deaths ect but I am thinking the awarded numbers can't be super high.

[jurggie]

Originally Posted by Bcarver

I am also wandering if Wiki may be actually close. Looking at hundreds of panzermen portraits very few are wearing the pab even in 1945. Now I know we have to take into account the deaths ect but I am thinking the awarded numbers can't be super high.

A portrait was not made everytime a soldier or a relative earned a medal. I have dozens of Sterbebilder with medals that are not (or partially) shown on the portrait photo.

You have to take in account that soldiers were often months or even years from home. During that time they could have earned (so to speak) five medals.

Assuming that approximately 17.000.000 men served in the Wehrmacht between 1939 en 1945, there must have been (according to my figures) awarded between 200.000 and 300.000 PAB's.

Also the number of EK I's tends to be a lot higher than the figures that usually circulate on the net. The number of VWA's on the other hand is generally overestimated.

[ERIC LIN]

Hi jurggie
According the rarity of the PAB and the DK you have compared at the first post you made. My opinion have some different views.

The rarity can't be judge by the number awarded, but the number produced, as we all know that the numbers of panzer crewmen are far more less than the total number of Wehrmacht. Compare tho the DK, PABs are lower ranked award and much more manufacturers doing PABs.

The source that the wiki provided (PAB:35000 and DK: 28500) might be a bit unrealistic, but we have to notice that the most majority of PABs were awarded to ground troops only, the DK it to all the German soldiers.

I do believe the PAB produced over 50K or far more. the DK might be less more.

Just my two sense.....

Cheers
Eric

[Dietrich Maerz]

According to the last number the DK in Gold was awarded 25,964 and the DK in Silver 2,471 for a total of 28,435. Production was, of course, higher, but attrition and loss after the war even more so.

Production and award numbers have nothing to do with the value of an award. For years, the DK in Silver was considered a lower grade (like a second class) and only lately has the price risen. But not to a level of 10 times, which it would need to be if rarity would be measurement.

The same applies to the RK of the KVK, the Honor Rolls of all three branches, ....

Price has a lot to do with "what is chic" at the monent and how it is "pushed!"

[Don D.]

Originally Posted by peterm

That's a little bit too much:

For attacking France in 1940 we had:
955 Panzer II (3 men)
228 Panzer 38t (4 men)
349 Panzer III (5 men)
278 Panzer IV (5 men)

(from: von Senger und Etterlin / "Die deutschen Panzer 1926 - 1945")

But You are both right: the Wikipedia-numbers for issued PAB's must be total nonsense.

Kind regards,

Peter

This is just a snapshot of one point in time and does not take into account replacements for wounded men and the exapansion of the panzerwaffe prior to Barbarossa. And don't forget the side campaigns of the Balkens and North Africa.

[Don D.]

Originally Posted by Bcarver

I am also wandering if Wiki may be actually close. Looking at hundreds of panzermen portraits very few are wearing the pab even in 1945. Now I know we have to take into account the deaths ect but I am thinking the awarded numbers can't be super high.

I imagine that alot of those portraits were taken upon completion of training and right before shipping off to the front. We do the same thing at our training schools as well. A heroic picture for loved ones to have yet no time to have earned an award. Even in the field, wearing a PAB was problematioc. How many do you have to lose, or uniforms you tear, catching it on something as you get in and out of the tank before you decide not to wear it in the field?

[Panzercracker]

---You noticed that too, eh Dietrich. I recently got a "PM", on another Forum, from someone trying to sell a "finishless" (NS) PAB for $675.00! ***The guy eventually ended up selling it --to some else! --Rgds, Ken

Price has a lot to do with "what is chic" at the monent and how it is "pushed!"[/QUOTE]

[peterm]

Originally Posted by Don D.

This is just a snapshot of one point in time and does not take into account replacements for wounded men and the exapansion of the panzerwaffe prior to Barbarossa. And don't forget the side campaigns of the Balkens and North Africa.

Hi Don !

You are right, but my posting was only the answer to Your posting No. 2 with numbers of france-campaign in May 1940.

Kind regards,

Peter

[Panzercracker]

My mistake, the guy offered me 675E = US$845 --before shipping costs from Australia, no less. And, it went -to someone else. --Best, Ken

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

---You noticed that too, eh Dietrich. I recently got a "PM", on another Forum, from someone trying to sell a "finishless" (NS) PAB for $675.00! ***The guy eventually ended up selling it --to some else! --Rgds, Ken

Price has a lot to do with "what is chic" at the monent and how it is "pushed!"

[/QUOTE]

[Bcarver]

I took into account the training, lost badges ect for portraits. I guess my point (or opinion) is that I believe the pab couldn't have been awarded in excess of 100k, I believe the 50k sounds more realistic. Just my 2 cents.

[Don D.]

Originally Posted by Bcarver

I took into account the training, lost badges ect for portraits. I guess my point (or opinion) is that I believe the pab couldn't have been awarded in excess of 100k, I believe the 50k sounds more realistic. Just my 2 cents.

That is probably a more realistic range.