'booty'

[John M. Donovan]

Originally Posted by robertdmountfor

It often saddens me to read that the families / descendants of former high ranking personsonages from the TR are in difficulty financially...

Hi Robert-

When you start off a thread with a statement like this, I think you are bound to get responses that you are not looking for...Of all the things to be sad about regarding the Second World War, this probably ranks last on the list for most people with even a basic understanding of those events...

John

[Mhall]

I have to say I was amazed by how far this thread wondered from the original subject. It is amazing how little knowldge some people really have
on the subject in question. So here are a few facts to chew on:
1) Goering was one of the wealthiest men in Europe before the war had even started.
2) The Baton was made by the Berlin firm of HJ Wilm in 1938 ( Feldmarschal) and the Reichsmarschal baton was made in 1940;certainly not from gold and jewels stolen from his "victims".
3) Many of Goering's art pieces were purchased legitimately and were gifts
from other European Statesmen and German Industrialists. One of his most
prized items, a Cranach painting did indeed turn out to be a forgery, He did
own several others that were perfectly good.
4)Last, but not least, his wife Emmy fought a long and protracted battle with the British and US occupation armies for return of their family assets
in the late 40's and later with the West German government. The Goering
family did actually get some of these assets returned. Some of this included militaria and uniforms that have ultimately made there way into the collections of various people.
5) Edda Goering is a very private person and for obvious reasons, seldom
grants interviews to people, but it is known that she has devoted much
of her life to helping and caring for veterans of the German forces in
World War Two.

As far as the US returning the baton or any other significant piece to a
former enemy leader's family, I would have to say that that would be
unlikely indeed. The Baton is a legitamate war Trophy and is likely worth
over $3Million dollars. Any collector that could afford it would love to have it. In any event, just use your imagination at the spin the politically
correct press would put on the sale or return of such a thing today.

[Mhall]

I have to say I was amazed by how far this thread wondered from the original subject. It is amazing how little knowldge some people really have
on the subject in question. So here are a few facts to chew on:
1) Goering was one of the wealthiest men in Europe before the war had even started.
2) The Baton was made by the Berlin firm of HJ Wilm in 1938 ( Feldmarschal) and the Reichsmarschal baton was made in 1940;certainly not from gold and jewels stolen from his "victims".
3) Many of Goering's art pieces were purchased legitimately and were gifts
from other European Statesmen and German Industrialists. One of his most
prized items, a Cranach painting did indeed turn out to be a forgery, He did
own several others that were perfectly good.
4)Last, but not least, his wife Emmy fought a long and protracted battle with the British and US occupation armies for return of their family assets
in the late 40's and later with the West German government. The Goering
family did actually get some of these assets returned. Some of this included militaria and uniforms that have ultimately made there way into the collections of various people.
5) Edda Goering is a very private person and for obvious reasons, seldom
grants interviews to people, but it is known that she has devoted much
of her life to helping and caring for veterans of the German forces in
World War Two.

As far as the US returning the baton or any other significant piece to a
former enemy leader's family, I would have to say that that would be
unlikely indeed. The Baton is a legitamate war Trophy and is likely worth
over $3Million dollars. Any collector that could afford it would love to have it. In any event, just use your imagination at the spin the politically
correct press would put on the sale or return of such athing today.

[John M. Donovan]

Originally Posted by Mhall

I have to say I was amazed by how far this thread wondered from the original subject. It is amazing how little knowldge some people really have
on the subject in question. So here are a few facts to chew on:
1) Goering was one of the wealthiest men in Europe before the war had even started.
2) The Baton was made by the Berlin firm of HJ Wilm in 1938 ( Feldmarschal) and the Reichsmarschal baton was made in 1940;certainly not from gold and jewels stolen from his "victims".
3) Many of Goering's art pieces were purchased legitimately and were gifts
from other European Statesmen and German Industrialists. One of his most
prized items, a Cranach painting did indeed turn out to be a forgery, He did
own several others that were perfectly good.

Hi Matt-

3rd Reich apologia aside, I would certainly agree that the lack of knowledge regarding Göring's career and how he acquired his wealth is really staggering...

1. Göring was indeed wealthy before the war. He held numerous political offices in the criminal state that was the 3rd Reich and received many salaries from these offices. He also grabbed a large number of businesses for pratically pennies on the dollar or for nothing when Jews or others were pushed out by the state. Even prior to the war, it is hard to argue that Göring acquired his wealth 'cleanly'

2. I don't think anyone would argue that they were literally the jewels of his victims on the baton (read Hyperbole), rather that the Göring built his career on corrupt and quasi-legal business deals and by stealing what belonged to others, well before 1938 too.

3. Sure, but where did this money come from to purchase these paintings 'legitmately'? See above...And it should not be forgotten that Göring was one of the greatest looters of all-time.

The problem here is we are not talking about some 18 yr. old Gefreiter who had his watch and Iron Cross taken by a GI at the end of the war. Unlike a soldier who volunteered to serve and defend his country or perhaps was even conscripted, Hermann Göring was one of the driving forces of Nazism and all the horror that it brought to Germany and the world...

Göring was a brilliant, but brutal man, whose actions destroyed the lives of millions. So while it may be sad that his daughter, who is completely without guilt for these actions of her father, might have fallen on hard times; it is truly one of the least sad stories of the war. There are thousands of others whom Göring stole from, both before and during the war, that probably have a greater claim to any of his inheritance...

John

[Abzeichen]

Donald Rumsfeld, (who has no combat experience) would not allow the soldiers fighting in Iraq to take home trophies. However, "W" has Saddam's pistol in his drawer (which is better than the jawbone of an ass as described earlier in this thread)

Notwithstanding the Geneva convention, I believe it is a soldier's right to take trophies. Anyone who risks their life should be entitle to take medals, pistols, machine guns, or what ever he wants to hump. Now, pilliaging a farm house for silver is a different thing.

If you are a POW then be thankful you were not shot (which did happen). But if you got a nice looking visor cap or you are a RKT , say bye to it. You came into the war with nothing but your life. If you leave the same way, then you are truely fortunate.

Bruce

[VtwinVince]

The ludicrous remarks made in this thread once again prove to me that the population of the USA is comprised to large extent of pompous blowhards. "We kicked their butts", "We whooped them" blah, blah, blah. I seem to recall that the real winners of the last war were the Soviets, who bore the brunt of the fighting, not the johnny-come-lately Americans. Seems like this happened in WW1 as well, although there's alot of crowing about how the USA "saved" Europe then too. What a crock. As far as stealing "booty" from the enemy, everyone's been doing this since time began. I believe it was the famous latter-day war criminal, Rumsfeld, whom when brought to task on the looting of a certain famous museum in a certain middle eastern capital, made the disingenuous remark "Stuff happens". I think that about sums it up.

[pzrwest]

I understand where you are comming from VtwinVince. The US didn't entwer the war till Dec41 it had been going on since 39 almost 3 years before they came in. If the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl Habor they may not have entered when they did, seemed the Japanese did what congress wouldn't do.... get the US into the war

[John M. Donovan]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

The ludicrous remarks made in this thread once again prove to me that the population of the USA is comprised to large extent of pompous blowhards. "We kicked their butts", "We whooped them" blah, blah, blah. I seem to recall that the real winners of the last war were the Soviets, who bore the brunt of the fighting, not the johnny-come-lately Americans. Seems like this happened in WW1 as well, although there's alot of crowing about how the USA "saved" Europe then too. What a crock. As far as stealing "booty" from the enemy, everyone's been doing this since time began. I believe it was the famous latter-day war criminal, Rumsfeld, whom when brought to task on the looting of a certain famous museum in a certain middle eastern capital, made the disingenuous remark "Stuff happens". I think that about sums it up.

No better way to show us your lack of intelligence than by stereotyping an entire people and country or by demonstrating an embarassing lack of historical understanding.

The victory by the allies during the Second World War stems from a combined effort by several nations...The Soviet Union clearly bore the brunt of the fighting from 1941-1945, but did not defeat Germany alone. The United States sent tremendous quantities of vital aid and supplies to the Soviets. The delivery of American jeeps, etc. were crucial for insuring the mobility and operational success of the Red Army. Let's not forget to what helped turn the tide for the Soviets in Dec. 1941 and virtually save them from defeat - it was fresh Siberian divisions from the East. Why were these divisions transferred just in time to save Moscow, because the Soviets had received word through their sources that the Japanese had turned their attention towards the United States.

How well do you think the Soviets would have been able to prosecute the war if the Japanese had invaded the Soviet Union from the Far East and forcing Stalin to send troops to that front? Perhaps not having to fight a two-front war was beneficial for the Soviet war effort - ay? How well would the Soviets have faired if the Allies, primarily lead by the US, had not fought and destroyed German Armies in Africa, Italy, and France...

No one country defeated Germany during WWII, it was a combined effort paid for by the blood of soldiers from many nations.

Your comments regarding WWI are equally uniformed...Russia had already lost the war and surrendered to Germany in 1917, thus contributing little towards the defeat of Germany. On the Western Front, Germany and Great Britain/France were locked in a stalemate and it was the support of American forces that ultimately tipped the scales and turned the tide of victory in favor of the allies...In fact, the support of the 'Johnny-come-lately' Americans did indeed result in the defeat of Germany

Re: Rumsfeld, Bush, et al...Sadly, there is nothing positive I can say, except for this chapter in US history will soon becoming to an end.

John

[VtwinVince]

John, you make some valid points, but my view remains unchanged. And you can quit with the name-calling, as I've done my share of research in my time.

[John M. Donovan]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

John, you make some valid points, but my view remains unchanged. And you can quit with the name-calling, as I've done my share of research in my time.

Once again you are mistaken. I did not call you any names. I simply pointed out that you were stereotyping Americans and demonstrated an embarassing lack of knowledge on the subjects you commented on.

However, you would be wise to follow your own advice, as calling Americans 'pompous blowhards', I do believe qualifies as name-calling...

John

[billcarson]

You two lads will like this one, classic Steptoe and Son. Watch it from a minute and a half in

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hlfpT_xIKhE

[John M. Donovan]

Originally Posted by billcarson

You two lads will like this one, classic Steptoe and Son. Watch it from a minute and a half in

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hlfpT_xIKhE

Thanks Bill...Absolutely classic!

John

[BryanD]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

The ludicrous remarks made in this thread once again prove to me that the population of the USA is comprised to large extent of pompous blowhards. "We kicked their butts", "We whooped them" blah, blah, blah. I seem to recall that the real winners of the last war were the Soviets, who bore the brunt of the fighting, not the johnny-come-lately Americans. Seems like this happened in WW1 as well, although there's alot of crowing about how the USA "saved" Europe then too. What a crock. As far as stealing "booty" from the enemy, everyone's been doing this since time began. I believe it was the famous latter-day war criminal, Rumsfeld, whom when brought to task on the looting of a certain famous museum in a certain middle eastern capital, made the disingenuous remark "Stuff happens". I think that about sums it up.

Yep if the Canadians hadn't been winning the War for GB the Nazis would have been goosesteppin through London.
They really won the battle of Dieppe. I don't know how many German soldiers twisted their ankles tripping over dead hosers on the beach. I bet that set the Nazi's back at least an hour and shortened the war by 10 seconds. That was a stunning individual Canadian effort. Oh well I guess they gave it their best.

[pzrwest]

If you read about Dieppe you will see it was a British planned operation by Mountbatton and he used Canadian troops as cannon fodder.
But yes it was a combined operation that defeated the Nazi's.

[Abzeichen]

Although I concurr completely with Mr. Donovan, I think the orignal issue was whether we should give war booty back.

Of course, nobody on this forum will volunteer to give his collection back. One chap sited the Genevia Connvention.

The items primarily taken as booty are uniforms and equipment, which are issued. Theoretically, if the TR had surrendered conditionally (in tact) those soldiers would have to turn that stuff back in when they were discharged. I don't know if the Germans have their version of a "statement of charges" for "lost or destroyed" equipment. Technically the private purchase uniforms would be personal property, but the other issued equipment was conficated from a government which no longer existed.

The fact that the new Bundes Republic would not honor many of the debts of the TR (e.g. the deposits for Volkswagens paid before the war for post war production), I would argue that they had in effect abandoned the property of the Reich. The Germans did not demand to all of the countries they invaded to allow them to come back and collect their abandoned vehicles.

As far as I am concerned, war booty is like buying an item at a pawn shop, the owner abandoned it, either voluntarily or unvoluntarily!