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'booty'
Old 01-22-2008, 08:12 PM   #1
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It often saddens me to read that the families / descendants of former high ranking personsonages from the TR are in difficulty financially... it saddens me because in many cases, the estate of their former husband / father / grandfather had been 'confiscated' or stolen by the allied forces as 'booty'.
This brings me to my question;

Who agrees with me that Hermann Goerings Reichsmarshall's baton should be rightfully returned to Edda Goering?
 

Old 01-23-2008, 12:42 AM   #2
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one. It is my understanding that his baton was a badge of his office as Reichmarschall. As such his claim to it, and those of any of his descendents, would not exist as of 25 April 1945 when Hitler "handed him his walking papers" along with the issue of a death warrant, well before Alexander or West Point took possession of it.

Technicalities aside, I still disagree with the notion of returning such artifacts to their "rightful owners". If we were talking confiscated pre-war land, one might convince me acquiesce to the idea of financial compensation of one form or another, but not anything like this. Given the criminal nature of the regime in general and the Göring in particular, one might say that any desendents have as much claim to to all of the stolen artwork once displayed in Karinhall, which I might add were spoils of war that the family never intended to return.

As to any financial burdens that they face, it is my sincere wish those of such families find some way to improve their lives. I seldom bear ill will against persons I do not know and whose circumstances I do not understand. This remains true for the families of those who led Nazi Germany. I simply do not see the return as a viable or reasonable solution to this.

Shane
 

Misplaced Sympathies...
Old 01-23-2008, 01:31 AM   #3
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Default Misplaced Sympathies...

A great first post, welcome Shane...

You've echoed my thoughts exactly. Given the criminal nature of Goering's activities, I hardly think compensation is in order for his family, rather one might argue that the descendants of his victims (i.e. from the businesses he co-opted or property that he appropriated) deserve some consideration. However, this idea of reparations can go on indefinitely and I feel it is more important that, while still remembering the lessons of the past, we move on. I'm fairly certain the allies and victims of Nazi crimes have exacted their 'pound of flesh' from Germany...

Best,
Jonh
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Old 01-23-2008, 02:44 AM   #4
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Items related to to leading figures like Goering i really can't see an argument for returning them or rather giving them to descendants. The first thing they'd do would be to sell them for financial gain and there's just no way that would be allowed to happen without a storm of protest.

On the other hand, personal effects of regular soldiers are a different matter. For example, a medal stolen from an individual upon capture. It's illegal to do so and if a veteran or family could establish in a court of law that an item of his was stolen and not just swapped for food or cigarettes. Then i think such items should be returned. That of course would be deeply unpopular amongst the collecting community but how many families would want to go through the legal hurdles and cost of trying to do that? Certainly not for items that might be worth a few hundred or a few thousand euros.
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:04 AM   #5
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Upon capture ALL items of military equipment, which may aid and abet in the furtherance of enemy activity, are subject to permanent confiscation. Wearing medals raises morale-that's their purpose.
Hence, they get confiscated.
 

Old 01-23-2008, 10:18 AM   #6
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As far as I'm aware, and if we have any legal minds here please speak up, the enemies uniform and anything on it is deemed 'booty' and qualifies for confiscation. Personal property such as wedding rings, civilian watches, necklaces with religious medals, etc. are personal property and not considered 'war booty' and not subject to confiscation. How do the legal-beagles read this?

Bob
 

Old 01-23-2008, 10:44 AM   #7
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This discution already occured a while back, and somebody posted an extract of the Geneva convention (I think), that clearly stated that military awards were not to be confiscated from their rightfull recipients.

JL
 

Booty
Old 01-23-2008, 11:04 AM   #8
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Default Booty

Greetings All,

It was part of the Nazi regime! My father helped kick their ass and defeated them. They bore animus against the entire world! IT saddens me that we didn't catch them all and eradicate them. They have no rights! Their estates were based on profits from the slave labor and confiscated goods.

Fred Green
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Old 01-23-2008, 01:09 PM   #9
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Any items of military or political nature were considered legtimate war trophies. I cannot remember how many things I have picked up that had permission chits with them signed by commanding officers as a legal war trophy. As far as medals, uniform items, head gear, field gear, daggers, weapons etc. They are legal war booty.
 

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Old 01-23-2008, 01:26 PM   #10
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Default Tough

I'm a Legal Beagle, so to speak.

Upon the synthesis of the state and military by the Nazis-items with a swastika were and are of a political character and thus can and were confisctaed or destroyed. remember, the Nazi State was declared a criminal regime and this ruling still stands-and how can it not given what they did under the rubric of the state?

The Geneva Convention contains exceptions and this is a grey area in which items of a military/political nature are subject to confiscation.

Put simply-there's a big difference between stealing a piece of art and confiscating someones' Iron Cross.

Personal effects are supposed to be legitimate-and most were left alone by the Allies.
 

Old 01-23-2008, 02:28 PM   #11
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Well if they give back everything they stole from my family and country...
Because now i say no, that baton was probaly made out of stolen silver/gold anyway.

Funny, since tanks and EKM's officialy still are German goverment property.. no way in hell i'm giving back anything.
But thats just my opinion.
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Old 01-23-2008, 03:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HG_Lang View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one. It is my understanding that his baton was a badge of his office as Reichmarschall. As such his claim to it, and those of any of his descendents, would not exist as of 25 April 1945 when Hitler "handed him his walking papers" along with the issue of a death warrant, well before Alexander or West Point took possession of it.

Technicalities aside, I still disagree with the notion of returning such artifacts to their "rightful owners". If we were talking confiscated pre-war land, one might convince me acquiesce to the idea of financial compensation of one form or another, but not anything like this. Given the criminal nature of the regime in general and the Göring in particular, one might say that any desendents have as much claim to to all of the stolen artwork once displayed in Karinhall, which I might add were spoils of war that the family never intended to return.

As to any financial burdens that they face, it is my sincere wish those of such families find some way to improve their lives. I seldom bear ill will against persons I do not know and whose circumstances I do not understand. This remains true for the families of those who led Nazi Germany. I simply do not see the return as a viable or reasonable solution to this.

Shane
I think you mis-understand, Goerings daughter was 4 years old, so I dont think she advised too much on policy... Germany was a legitimate country that awarded its war heroes like any other. Whatever he did in his public role does not detract from the fact that he paid with his life and his family were robbed of what was rightfully theirs as his benefactors.
Howabout the PLM as an example, or all his other WW1 awards?
 

Old 01-23-2008, 03:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diche Fritz View Post
Greetings All,

It was part of the Nazi regime! My father helped kick their ass and defeated them. They bore animus against the entire world! IT saddens me that we didn't catch them all and eradicate them. They have no rights! Their estates were based on profits from the slave labor and confiscated goods.

Fred Green
Why do you collect this field if you feel this way?
 

Old 01-23-2008, 03:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertdmountfor View Post
Why do you collect this field if you feel this way?
Well he is right about the NAZI leaders, but not the normal people.
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Also soldbucher from 116pzdiv. And 1944-1945 eastfront pockets, kampfgruppe and Oder front.
My website: Gotrick.nl
 

Old 01-23-2008, 04:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Admiraal View Post
Well he is right about the NAZI leaders, but not the normal people.
Dont forget fighting was fanatical right until the end, and the people were behind their Fuhrer 100%.
 
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