Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[Peter v L]

Panzer Pioneer Wrapper

Wrapper history as far as I know it. Approx 12 years ago it was bought by a well known US panzer collector from a dealer in England. he kept it for approx 5 years then asked me if i could sell it in consignment for him which I did. It was then sold to another US panzer collector who also kept it for approx 5 years then he needed money for something else and asked me if I would help him sell it which i did to the current collector living in Sweden. It have not been changed in any way since it was first brought to my knowledge. Sizes on the markings inside the wrapper have been measured against the wrapper itself and they match.

I post all pictures we have made from the wrapper. A good way to discuss the wrapper would be to ask for any additional photos wanted and we post that, after that maybe we can discuss the authenticity of the wrapper alone in a manor where nothing else is discussed then the item alone. No personal issues etc, the item alone. If not I will not comment more about it neither will the current owner.

What is the questions which make some doubt its authenticity, what are pro originality what is against it. It was shown to many US collectors during it´s 10 years in US and got all ohhh´s and ahhh´s at those occasions which naturally means nothing. If you have nothing to add except "i don´t like it" or "I like it" and similar comments which are totally unfruitful for the discussion please don´t post. If you like it or not does not matter, the reason why you do or not does!

I don´t have it with me at the moment, it will be with us again on wednesday so be patient till then for any extra photos requested.

So now let the discussion start

Peter v L

[derka]

maybe some pics of colar reverse, particulary the area where tabs are seewn ?
and of stiching of EKII and Ost rubbons behind ?
derka

[Peter v L]

OK, will be added on wednesday.

P

Originally Posted by derka

maybe some pics of colar reverse, particulary the area where tabs are seewn ?
and of stiching of EKII and Ost rubbons behind ?
derka

[derka]

Originally Posted by Peter v L

OK, will be added on wednesday.

P

thank you.
and a precision : are skulls magnetic ?
derka

[Peter v L]

As far as I remember they are aluminium ones and non magnetic, but will be back about those on wednesday as well

P

Originally Posted by derka

thank you.
and a precision : are skulls magnetic ?
derka

[Langemark]

Hello Peter,

Did the soldier earn the EKII and Ostfront medal ribbons between two shots ?
Just joking : picture 11 obviously doesn't belong to this promising new thread.

Best, Mark

[Peter v L]

Sorry, it is removed now:-)

P

Originally Posted by Langemark

Hello Peter,

Did the soldier earn the EKII and Ostfront medal ribbons between two shots ?
Just joking : picture 11 obviously doesn't belong to this promising new thread.

Best, Mark

[Edward]

Who was the major UK dealer?

[Peter v L]

I can not see that having any bearing to this thread, we said that we should discuss the item and not the people involved in selling and collecting it.

The item have to stand by it self if not it does not matter if God sold it

Peter v L

Originally Posted by Edward

Who was the major UK dealer?

[Langemark]

Just an observation free of any critic whatsoever :

The collar tabs look as if they were made of the same cloth as the Jacke. Maybe it is just an illusion but I'm more used to see finer badge cloth or Döskin.

Mark

[Peter v L]

I will address that wednesday as well when in hand.

P

Originally Posted by Langemark

Just an observation free of any critic whatsoever :

The collar tabs look as if they were made of the same cloth as the Jacke. Maybe it is just an illusion but I'm more used to see finer badge cloth or Döskin.

Mark

[PANZERPIONIERE]

Gentleman, I do not know or remember the history of the Spiess Pz.Pi. wrapper, it was quite a while ago. When I switched divisions at work, all my e-mails pre 12-19-2006 were lost. It has been a long time since I looked at the Spiess. I remember I really liked the insignia. It would be nice to see some detailed pictures of the straps. I have plenty of insignia to compare to.>>
The EM Pz.Pi. example, I am the 3^rd owner. It was originally acquired from the vet by the late Rodger Hall. When he passed on Steve Wolfe purchased it, and I got it from Steve. It has not been dinked with, it is exactly as acquired. Michael H Pruett has followed this wrapper since day one, and has old Polaroid’s of it from when it was acquired.>>
If anyone would like me to post additional pictures of the wrapper, insignia I have etc. for comparisons, please ask, and I can do that.>>
Maybe just a Panzer-Pionier thread could be started? It would be informative and I am sure there are some nice items in collections to be posted.>>
Steve>>

[B. N. Singer]

I would like to FOCUS on the subject jacket of this thread.

That being said, I will confirm that although uncommon, I have encountered black bias material in Original Heer wraparounds.

B. N. Singer

[phild]

Originally Posted by B. N. Singer

I would like to FOCUS on the subject jacket of this thread.

That being said, I will confirm that although uncommon, I have encountered black bias material in Original Heer wraparounds.

B. N. Singer

Bryon,

I'm not asking you to give away any of your secrets....but is there anything that you can see with this wap (other than the piping aspect perhaps) that you have NOT encountered in an original? Obviously I am asking for at least some specific pointers like for instance thread, Material, stamp composition or something about the cut/shape.....I see that non of this would give one thing away to any faker on how to correct something.

I can tell you that I am bothered by the first 3 of those four things, BUT I can not say that those things together even make the wrap a fake. I can accept that I too have seen basic cloth tabs on mid and later wraps...maybe they were used earlier..I just may not have seen or noticed that before...I have not inspected 2000 real ones so my data pool is not even 1% of all made!

IF the bigger issue here is that someone has inspected a wrap like this one and determined it to be fake for some hard reason....like the dealer had 10 of them, or dacron/poly thread was used in tack in the lapel lining or they know who made them in 1996 or whatever.....I could accept that as well.

Just to make it clear that I am not trying to toy with anyone here or with any ideas on how a wrap should look, I understand 100% what most every detail of a "textbook" issue wrap should look like (Heer) and I have examined many many dozens under a loop since the later 70s....not saying that I can not be fooled or am an expert or would not ask for other opinions....but just saying that there is no magic in this.....just detailed examination, some luck and getting the experience of looking at a lot of good ones and bad ones and knowing which were which at the time...or least finding out the truth later!

[dukhunter]

Originally Posted by phild

Bryon,

I'm not asking you to give away any of your secrets....but is there anything that you can see with this wap (other than the piping aspect perhaps) that you have NOT encountered in an original? Obviously I am asking for at least some specific pointers like for instance thread, Material, stamp composition or something about the cut/shape.....I see that non of this would give one thing away to any faker on how to correct something.

I can tell you that I am bothered by the first 3 of those four things, BUT I can not say that those things together even make the wrap a fake. I can accept that I too have seen basic cloth tabs on mid and later wraps...maybe they were used earlier..I just may not have seen or noticed that before...I have not inspected 2000 real ones so my data pool is not even 1% of all made!

IF the bigger issue here is that someone has inspected a wrap like this one and determined it to be fake for some hard reason....like the dealer had 10 of them, or dacron/poly thread was used in tack in the lapel lining or they know who made them in 1996 or whatever.....I could accept that as well.

Just to make it clear that I am not trying to toy with anyone here or with any ideas on how a wrap should look, I understand 100% what most every detail of a "textbook" issue wrap should look like (Heer) and I have examined many many dozens under a loop since the later 70s....not saying that I can not be fooled or am an expert or would not ask for other opinions....but just saying that there is no magic in this.....just detailed examination, some luck and getting the experience of looking at a lot of good ones and bad ones and knowing which were which at the time...or least finding out the truth later!

Thank you, Phild!

duk