|
Wach Rgt. Dzierzynski "Commandos" Uniform
Greetings All,
I have a question regarding the uniform worn by special paratrooper-qualified (commando) units of the Wach Rgt. Dzierzynski: In the book East Germany - A Country Study this passage appears on page 273, paragraph 3: "A Swiss source reported in 1986 that the troops of the Ministry of State Security also had commando units similar to the Soviet Union's Spetsnaz forces. These East German units were said to wear the uniform of the airborne troops, although with the violet collar patch of the Ministry of State Security rather than the orange one of paratroopers. They also wore the sleeve stripe (cuff title) of the Feliks Dzierzynski Guard Regiment." To me, this sounds like a regular Wach. Rgt. Dzierzynski uniform worn with a para beret, and possibly jump boots. The beret alone would likely elicit the "uniform of the airborne troops" comment. Any information, and thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Chuck |
I am not sure whether all that is not only a fairy tale.
AR-11 |
Quote:
You may be right, though I don't know what motive they would have to make such a statement if it were false? I have posted this same thread on several different forums and never really got a definitive reply. Its all very curious. . . Chuck |
Hey Chuck...you are raising overall an interesting question from my prepective of which Mike Gallagher and I briefly discussed earlier in another thread.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=wachregiment Your question I believe goes to the heart of the overall structure and mission of the uniformed section of the STASI, the Wachregiment. From my current understanding was that there were no other organizations other then the uniform section of the Wachregiment of which the Wachregiment had two roles; a peace time role and a war time role. There peace time role involved specific functions of security of persons and government buildings and VIP details along with other peace time duties for the STASI. The war time plans for the Wachregiment would have been the invasion of West Berlin and other rear area security missions against NATO. What is also of interest to me from what Mike G said and I hope others can provide input that there was two elements of the Wachregiment...the ceremonial and combat sections. To date I have never heard of this since in my past professional life had always known of just one uniform group with two distinct functions. So it would for sure be of interest in knowing if there was a combat section...which will for sure help my brain bucket...thumbsup Now getting to Chuck's initial question...from my understanding was an airborne section was part of the special units of the STASI and if my memory is correct they would have been under a section known as the AGM (Ministers Working Group) ((note: there would be an additional letter after AGM, but I can not think of it at this time. For example AGM-?)) and this section was a close hold secret to even to other members within the STASI (Need to know). This section for cover purposes was placed within the Wachregiment and there wartime mission would have been conducting operations in NATOs rear area. (((Note: what is important to remember is that AGM would have worked closely with the HVA so that if war with NATO started then both units would operate as a team to conduct their missions in NATOs rear area.))) What I am not sure at this time is if the airborne section wore anything other then the DDR jump wings. It would be of interest to read from other forum members on what they know. Also I know Mike G is going to have an interest in this thread and will provide input once he gets back home. |
Hi Ralph,
Thanks for the reply. My suspicions are that if this distinct uniform did exist it was worn by an airborne-capable element of the AGM/S that was attached to the Wach Rgt. Dzierzynski in the late 70's, and stationed in Erkner. Their (the AGM/S) training camp was located in Eilenburg, as was the Wach Rgt.'s airborne training section. On one hand, it would seem illogical to have a unit of this nature wearing a distinct uniform such as described. But then we go back to the Swiss observer's comments. Maybe Michael will be able to clear this up. . . Chuck |
please do not be angrily on me, Chuck.
About the DDR and especially the STASI is told a lot. And still even more has been "dreamed" about them. Especially here in Germany. The STASI can be held responsible after the DDR-end for everything. Whether they was it really, is most not decisively. And it so so till today! Remeber: in STASI were max. 120.000 members. Inclusive the Wachregiement! And in the small land DDR everything could barely remain concealed. Such "DDR-SPEZNAZ" would have had to come sometime in daylight! Because somebody which has served with these STASI-Fallies would have told something! This should be is my quite personal opinion for the first. It is founded only with the fact that I lived in the DDR. I promise to investigate a little and then to be able to give maybe a fundiertere answer. AR-11 |
Hey Dirk...you make some intriguing points of which one of them I find very interesting about how difficult it would be to conceal such activities from others.
Let me ask this, would it have been difficult before the Wall came down to conceal such activities from the NVA and the STASI Wachregiment of such special units? Also, correct me if I am wrong in making this observation, I had an understanding that STASI activities are not openly discussed except by folks who are writing books, publications or court proceedings. It will be very interesting on what additional investigative information you come up with and thanks for your input to date. thumbsup |
Hey Chuck...thanks about the letter "S", I could not remember the letter since there are some other letters that were also used by the AGM and my brain bucket is getting old. But let me say this, the AGM-S was a unit within the STASI Wachregiment that operated in a cover status and I am of the thought there was no special features or dress to show the difference except for the DDR wings, because if there was, then everyone would have known this and we would have the answers about this unit.
I might be off the mark on my point and Dirk and hope others forum members can correct me or fill in the blanks. Chuck...thanks for the info you posted. thumbsup |
Quote:
Of course the STASI was a real Secret Service and worked very effectivly. But: even the state STASI-guys in our (military) unities have themselves unmasked sometime by any inconspicuous things. Every NVA soldier knew that STASI-guys were among them. But who it was-first nobody know that. If you live 18 month in the same room, make the same things, eat, sleep, wash e.t.c. together: Ralph, believe me, sometime you note whether somebody has a secret....And alcohol is big thing to loosen someones tongue... STASI/Fallies do not live in the aerial-empty space. As said, the DDR was a small land. Sometime one "tripped" quite necessarily over such activities...Especially the people who lived around the barracks and training-fields. AR-11 |
Quote:
But the one thing I will say from my prespective and knowledge is that not all STASI activities are known even after 15 years or since the end of the Cold War since the STASI are not well liked in Germany...so to a certain point some secrecy continues... |
Quote:
And I do not deny the existence of the AMG and AMG/S. I found the information, that in 1989 all in all max 1044 ready-educated guys existed. The most of these "SPEZNAZ" were only plans, as I believe... AR-11 |
Hey Dirk...well let me say this and I hope during your investigation you will find the information, but there were Special units beyond plans that existed within the DDR of which they would most likely be known in a way as special operation units.
One thing to remember from one of my earlier post would be the activities of the Special units and the HVA. And let me say this, in order for a plan to work there must be someone to practice the plan beyond the concept on paper. Also...I find it interesting with the number of persons at 1044. The number of persons I knew of was around 800. So what you say is interesting...Thanks... |
Quote:
Your comments and observations are much appreciated. Please be assured I am not in the least bit angry. If my post seemed that way, then it is I who apologize. There is no better source of information on these things than guys like you who actually lived in the DDR and served in the NVA. Any other information you may find in your investigation will be much appreciated. Ralph, Thanks for your replies. I'm really looking forward to more information on MfS "special ops" as this thread progresses. The volume of information that comes out in these threads is amazing, and most interesting. |
Hi all,
I'm still not back, but did manage to hijack a computer at a hotel. Interesting thread. First, regarding the Stasi "Felix Dziersynski Wachregiment". My understanding of this unit is that it was a "Color Guard" regiment that mostly served in a "Security" fashion. As Ralph already noted, he and I have split hairs a few times on this regiment. I am of the opinion they were not involved with the "Combat Arms" element that comprised the Stasi Motorized Rifle Regiment. To my knowledge, this was another independent regiment under the Stasi. They didn't wear the Stasi Cuff Bar associated with the Wachregiment. Others may disagree. But if you think about it, they didn't have time to stand around and look pretty in their "Cuff Band" Tunics guarding official buildings and providing "Protective Service" to important dignitaries as did the "Cuff Baned" Dziersynski boys. Their mission was that of a Soviet style Motorized Rifle Regiment - and to accomplish this, meant they were out in the boonies training as a "Ground Pounder" force with their BMPs and practicing infantry tactics. That would have been their daily routine. I have an assortment of "Non-Cuff Baned" NCO and EM Stasi Tunics, and I believe they were worn by these guys, and not the Stasi Wachregiment. About a DDR Spetznats unit. Somewhere stashed away, I've got a book that had a small reference relevant the existence of such an organization. However, I don't recall it being affiliated with the Stasi. I do recall for sure, that the uniform they wore was a normal NVA type uniform. I also recall that they did not wear a beret of any type. I believe they were authorized the wear of jump wings, and that basically was the only clue that they were something special. I also one time came across a discussion about these guys on an "All German" NVA Forum run by former Fallschirmjager NVA servicemen. They were discussing the fact that these guys on occasion would be paricipants in training missions they were in, but that they totally kept to themselves. They too described them as equipped in normal NVA uniforms, and not anything associated with what NVA Fallschirmjager would wear. Again, no mention was made about them being Stasi. At this time I cannot contribute more. |
Members,
Perhaps what you are pointing to are some of the special NVA units that were jump qualified. I am thinking of the SAK and KSK of the NVA. Both units were commando - jump qualified. On the SAK they wore the Para BDU in the field sans beret and they wore a standard NVA uniform but with jump badges. I am a normal contri of the www.gunboards.com/militaria forum. I have posted a link about the SAK on that site -just search for SAK. Sorry, I would give the link directly, but I am not using my normal computer with my favorite links. The SAK and KSK have their own websites in german. I would like to contri more to this forum as I am a lurker here. Hey Mike! Paul Heath |
Hey Mike...Your still my best friend...thumbsup You for sure bring out some interesting points of which the possiblity could very much exist, but from my understanding the two organizations were one in the same and I saw this from my past professional readings and experiences.
Now, I for sure could be wrong in my my understanding (due to age catching up with me) about the unit structure and I will be the first to stand up and admit it. So lets read from other forum members who could pass on there knowledge on what they know to answer our question. Remember this forum was made for all of us to discuss these types of questions and issues. Hey Paul Heath...first welcome aboard to the DDR forum and I thank you for wanting to particpate on the forum and hope to see more posts and discussions in the future...thumbsup You raise an interesting point, but the units we are referring too were structured within the STASI and independent of the NVA. Where as you mentioned the SAK and KSK-18; they were more structured as the special operation soldiers for the NVA. But it is also good to know of these units. When time permits with you, I know there would be other forum members interested in the information you discussed in your post if you could be kind enough to discuss your knowledge about these organizations with us. Thanks...thumbsup And again welcome... |
Hi Ralph,
No problemo - the've got special shampoo for split-end "Hairs". Hi Paul. It is really great to see you here. I hope you become a regular now that you are on board. And I do remember your Thread that was posted on the other forum. You had some really good and interesting information about the two units, one of which was similar, but not exact to the U.S. Navy Seals. Again, I want to welcome you to the Wehrmacht DDR Forum. Great to have you here. :) thumbsup |
Ralph,
I think you and I share the same notions on this. There is some good information on MfS special operations units in issue no.10 of the old SEGMC journal ("Sword and Shield - East Germany's Ministry for State Security"). According to the author (James Stejskal), the majority of MfS special ops personnel (all of which were controlled by the AGM/S and attached to the Wach Rgt.) came from the ranks of the Wach Rgt. Dzierzynski, though many candidates did come from Willi Sanger, and KSK (Combat Swimmer/UDT) elements of the NVA. In addition, in 1988 HA XXII, composed of 540 men, was created within AGM/S with an overt mission of combatting "terrorism". HA XXII had Operational Groups which were 4-5 man teams comprised of a team leader, a communicator, a demo expert, amd two "shooters". Their wartime mission was: Strategic reconnaissance beyond 150 km of the front. Short-term occupation of targets (as a larger element) Destruction of targets and weapons systems Interruption of traffic Deception ops Sabotage Ops with guerrillas and agents with spec ops of the Warsaw Pact James seemed to have pretty good sources for his article, as I have yet to find any errors in it. It would be nice to get more input from him on this, but I have long since lost contact. Chuck |
Great folks, so I have something learned again.
I found a link, where we see a new figure about the menpower of HA XXII , sorry it´s German, but i give the figure here: "HA XXII 878 Mitarbeiter". here´s the link: http://www.ddr-wissen.de/wiki/ddr.pl...abteilung_XXII Here we find copies of the application principles of the AGM/S: http://www.nierenspen.de/agm-s/ I hope you had the things not already in other discussion. Here it should be originally about the uniforms of these troops. Therefore I did not found any informations yet. AR-11 |
Hey Dirk…thanks for providing the web sites in your last post. It for sure helps to fill in the gaps for our discussion of which I can talk about.
Hey Chuck…I no longer have that issue (loaned it out many years ago), but in general the information you wrote appears to be in the right direction. If I remember this correctly, the HA XXII was started in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:cs:smarttags" /><st1:NumConv6p0 val="1989" sch="1">1989</st1:NumConv6p0> and not <st1:NumConv6p0 val="1988" sch="1">1988</st1:NumConv6p0>, and its creation were from two other organizations (Abt XXII and Abt XXIII) when they merged and became HA XXII. The two other organizations had been around since <st1:NumConv6p0 val="1975" sch="1">1975</st1:NumConv6p0> and <st1:NumConv6p0 val="1979" sch="1">1979</st1:NumConv6p0>. I also believe the number of <st1:NumConv6p0 val="540" sch="1">540</st1:NumConv6p0> was to low and now from Dirk’s post the number was <st1:NumConv6p0 val="878" sch="1">878</st1:NumConv6p0> and that in <st1:NumConv6p0 val="1989" sch="1">1989</st1:NumConv6p0> the commander of the HAXXII Oberst Horst Franz. What I find interesting is I thought the number was around <st1:NumConv6p0 val="800" sch="1">800</st1:NumConv6p0>, so thanks again Dirk for the update. Hey Mike...I can for sure use some of that shampoo for my split ends...:D thumbsup |
MdI paras........?
|
I think, this is the "normal" manual of the NVA-paratroopers.
It was only in the possession of the MdI and was stamped / registered there. If we now still "dig out" parachute jumping DDR-policemen, I tip from my chair. :1scream: :1scream: :1scream: AR-11:laugh: |
Quote:
|
Gentlemen,
in August 1973 the 10th "world festivals of the youth and students" took place in Berlin / DDR. The government had fear of terrorism. This was the originally reason for the creation of HA XXII. AR-11 |
again parashoot-jumping policemen:
Can you imagine this proud policeman with parachute???? :1sweat:smilewink :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: http://www.die-volkspolizei.de/images/poliz.JPG AR-11 sorry, it´s off topic |
Members,
Here is the link for the SAK http://www.spezialaufklaerung.de The SAK were a high speed/low drag NVA unit designed for the purpose of deep recon and sabotage. According to ex-members the only way you could tell they were not normal NVA was that they wore jump badges. In the field they wore the para bdu. Check out the web site it has tons of great info (in German). On the gunboards site there are a few threads giving more info. BTW, great forum! thumbsup Paul Heath |
Hey Paul...thanks for posting the link about the SAK...very interesting. Keep on posting!!!
Hey Dirk...I enjoyed your policeman picture from your last post...thumbsup . After thinking about it for a while I have a question for Dave M and to fellow forum members about the book Dave M posted. Dave, Could you eleborate more about what type of information the book contains about airborne operations? Did the MdI use the book for situational awareness about airborne operations? Thanks...:heloooo: |
Ralph,
Thanks for the invite - I do plan to post more. In fact I had heard about this board from gunboards...but inexplicably (whew, a fancy word :laugh: ) I checked this forum once or twice back then and not again until last week. As far as the fall handbuch - IMHO I think the "von Himmel" is a better choice for info about ops. Paul Heath |
Hey Paul...thanks for the information and I may have miss spoken in my last post. What I was inquiring about in regards to Dave's book was to find out what information is in the book. So I could possibly gain a better understanding why there is MdI markings on the inside cover. :heloooo:
|
Quote:
As Dirk pointed out there is nothing specific about the book. It follows the line of all handbooks used in the NVA. The stamp only indicates that it was in the inventory of the MdI rather then the NVA. The same stamp could/will possibly be found in the Handbuch fuer Sanitaeter for example or others without anything "special" or different about the content. Only the Handbuch Militaerisches Grundwissen, to my knowledge, differentiated between issues, mine is the NVA-edition. |
Quote:
|
MdI paras........?
this week in the mail...
4 piece mdi stamped para uniform.... http://www.gunboards.com/militaria/u...ture%20061.jpg bdu pants http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uplo...ture%20066.jpg winter pant liner http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uplo...ture%20064.jpg |
So, we now have an MdI marked/stamped Fallshirmjager book, and an MdI marked/stamped Fallschirmjager Field Uniform.
Questions: a). Given the uniform is dated 1984, is it possible the East German Polizei had something special going on, starting that year? Maybe the establishment of a new and unique unit, such as a S.W.A.T unit or immediate response unit of some sort? b). Or has David M's posts now brought the thread full circle and put this squarely back on the backs of the Stasi? Is this evidence of their in effect having jump qualified personnel? Thanks Dave for the posts. You have some very interesting stuff there. thumbsup |
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
I would tend to go with option (a) regarding the "Mdi" markings, but have in my collection a set of "MfS" marked para bdus which would confirm that the Stasi had jump-qualified personnel. They are date-coded the first quarter of 1980. A friend of mine has an identical (though smaller size) set. Chuck |
I´m not a stamp-specialist: but a rainpattern-uniform, stamped in 1958 could not be correct! The rainpatterns was introduced in NVA at the end of the 60ies... and some years later in MFS.
AR-11 |
Hi Dirk,
Actually, the 1958 stamp in the MfS marked Fallschirmjager clothing Chuck posted is not the Date. Probably it is a code specific to the garment type or location produced. The Date Stamp, after 1968 was a letter, usually with a number. The number signified the quarter - Jan to Mar; Apr to Jun; Jul to Sep and Oct to Dec. The Alphabet letters signified the actual year, "K" being 1969 and "D" being 1990. Ironically, there was an apparent screwup, in that the Letter "L" was used twice, and can be either 1973 or 1987. This is usually easy to determine, as 73 was still Dark Collar era and 87 was Open Collar Era. In the case of Chuck's MfS Fallschirmjager Clothing, it is date stamped: 1 / E, which is: 1st Quarter (Jan to Mar) 1980. thumbsup Dirk, I wouldn't sweat the small stuff - you former NVA guys were all way too busy with your work to worry or be concerned about the small mundane things such as what year your pants or shirts were manufactured. :laugh: |
MdI gloves ??
" what happened to Soviet's post on MdI gloves?
I read it here yesterday, and now its vanished without a trace Did the KGB get him? " :confused: |
Hi Chuck,
This sure opens the door for a lot of speculation, too which I very much wish the answers could be found. Without question, it is apparent the Stasi did have "Jump Qualified" personnel. What their varied missions and specific Unit designations may have been, remain a mystery to me. Also, what they "Jumped" from: ie; Fixed Wing or Rotary Aircraft. The aircraft presumably would have been provided by the NVA, at least until 1986, given that is when I believe, the MdI (Volkspolizei) formed their own Rotary Aircraft Wing? And Dave M's MdI Fallschirmjager clothing is dated 1984. So again, one has to wonder what aircraft they jumped from, and who provided it? Intrigue - :eek: :evilplan: This is what I like about the DDR stuff. :evilgrin: |
Quote:
Nothing so ominous as the KGB or Stasi. Soviet requested the post be pulled due to the fact the Glove Inserts were not specifically MdI - that's all. Perhaps he can be encouraged to initiate a thread on DDR Gloves and Glove Inserts. :) |
Quote:
here are the details on LETTER date coding taken my web page: http://wizard.hprtec.org/builder/wor....php3?ID=28500 From the larger NVA page: http://wizard.hprtec.org/builder/wor....php3?ID=28436 The NVA date coded it's uniform tunics, pants, hats, and field gear. After 1969 these items were coded with a letter for the year and a Roman numeral I, II, III, and IV for the quarter. DDR Year Codes 1969 - K 1970 - M 1971 - X 1972 - B 1973 - L 1974 - O 1975 - S 1976 - R 1977 - A 1978 - U 1979 - F 1980 - E 1981 - G 1982 - I 1983 - C 1984 - H 1985 - T 1986 - P 1987 - L 1988 - Y 1989 - N 1990 - D |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:12 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com