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-   -   New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are... (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=951907)

Norm F 03-03-2018 04:09 PM

New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...
 
Okay Guys, here we go with the launch of our new updated 2018 opinion poll on the French-made Kriegsmarine war badges.

If you're semi-retired, on holiday, laid up with a broken leg, etc. please take the time to review the previous 22-page discussion thread and poll that covered a 14 year period since 2004:
"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

...and then cast your vote here in the new poll to see where the forum community currently stands on the issue.

To review, in their favour:
1) multiple anecdotes of U.S. veteran bring-backs like this one.
2) current collector anecdotes both in U.S. and France going back to at least the 1970s.
3) elaborate production methods with unique labour-intensive designs for almost the full range of KM badges, complete with unique patterned cartons and packing paper.
4) oft-repeated (and published) accompanying anecdote of a Paris Navy Headquarters with a large stash at the end of the war which was gradually raided over the years and finally making it into the collector market circa 1970.

Arguments against:
1) no firm provenance (anecdotal only)
2) the "Paris Navy Headquarters" story links up to the late antiquarian dealer René Johnson who is himself implicated in some other large-scale scams
3) micro-imagery unequivocally showing that they are cast production (not in itself a deal-breaker since casting was also done in wartime), yet with some features that appear to try to mimic a die-struck look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAEKgiud9Y4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC5Uq6RuE9c
4) the fact that the main pin is also of cast production
5) the inexplicable appearance of a Deumer U-Boat planchet with typical "French-made" hardware and packaging
6) the 1942 published explicit announcement from the Präsidialkanzlei forbidding the distribution of German military awards in occupied and friendly foreign countries.
7) Despite being relatively common, never appear in German vet groupings nor in any period photographs in wear (while other more rare awards do).

If we're fortunate, more forensic analysis may be forthcoming, but for now a new poll should better reflect an informed collecting community.

Best regards,
---Norm

upbeek 03-03-2018 04:31 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Gentlemen
I’m first to vote fake and I can’t remember what I voted initially!
The creator of the video seems like a funny character but he claims not to be an active member of this forum ? But was once , I think we have a great expertise here but we need him back here he skills are good!
Kind regards Chay

Jeff V 03-03-2018 05:05 PM

It is good to see the return of Franks's bush baby!

Norm F 03-03-2018 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff V (Post 8100816)
It is good to see the return of Frank's bush baby!

Wow, that bush baby is 15 years old!
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...686#post248686

Best regards,
—-Norm

Chet Sowersby 03-04-2018 11:54 AM

Frank's bush baby is a trip down the WAF memory lane for us older members.thumbsup

Chet

GAMS1 03-04-2018 01:42 PM

2) the "Paris Navy Headquarters" story links up to the late antiquarian dealer René Johnson who is himself implicated in some other large-scale scams

I've been collecting for more than 40 years now , mainly in France and Germany but
i've never heard of this guy in France , being somebody really important on the Militaria french market in the 70's or 80's ?
I found he was on the Antiquarian market in the 50's ?
And having something for sale by a supposed crook doesn't make something IMO automatically a repro ?
Nick

upbeek 03-04-2018 02:01 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Nick
It doesn’t but in the case of these badges they have been examined under a 3D microscope the video is on YouTube! Here are some photos which shows that not only are the badges cast but also the hardware as well! This is the work of a faker and the end of all speculation
Kind regards Chay

Norm F 03-04-2018 04:19 PM

2 Attachment(s)
The only French-made badge I own is the Minesweeper (the only one to show up as far as I know). I don't have a USB microscope (yet) but I pushed my camera to its limit to see if the main pin is similarly cast as the badges on the videos. Indeed it is, precisely the same construction.

Best regards,
---Norm

Norm F 03-04-2018 04:23 PM

2 Attachment(s)
A couple of other closeups of the Minesweeper showing the same "pseudo-shear lines" as the U-Boat on the video. Nevertheless it's a die cast badge. Not sure why this one wasn't mass produced like the others. It came out of an old U.S. collection.

Best regards,
---Norm

Norm F 03-04-2018 04:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's the whole badge, warts and all.

Best regards,
---Norm

upbeek 03-04-2018 04:34 PM

Great stuff Norm!
I want the microscope 3D device as well, tomorrow I will find a pin I have somewhere it is the coke bottle type that came off a Schwerin fake E boat and that is a cast one I’m sure obviously,
I do collect British Military cap badges as well and in that field of collecting the fakers have gone to town as well,
Kind regards Chay

Christian J 03-04-2018 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norm F (Post 8101896)
Not sure why this one wasn't mass produced like the others.

Least value of them all?
Btw, I can recommend Supereyes USB microsscope. Decent value for the money. Got the b008 myself.

Norm F 03-04-2018 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian J (Post 8101999)
Least value of them all?

That would be a reason not to produce the design and tooling for the Minesweeper, but once all that effort had already been made why not run off a thousand? The only thing I can think of is maybe the mold broke?

Best regards,
---Norm

tystgaard 03-04-2018 06:15 PM

Badges
 
Well these most be fake- Excellent videos about
these badges. It makes sense hoards of badges
was found and stories are real, but someone
made good money selling the hoard of original standard
German medals. Maybe these was created when stock
of originals ran out. Just speculation - RA RA;-)

I have a Cheap USB microscope- but not so good
quality, so don’t use it much more. Recently I found
to a low price a really good old fashion vintage
microscope. Great tool:-) and a good alternative
to a really expensive good quality USB modern
microscope - I can just not share what I discover:-)

BR
Nicolai

GAMS1 03-05-2018 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upbeek (Post 8101654)
Nick
It doesn’t but in the case of these badges they have been examined under a 3D microscope the video is on YouTube! Here are some photos which shows that not only are the badges cast but also the hardware as well! This is the work of a faker and the end of all speculation
Kind regards Chay

So for all of the "non believers" , a cast badge is automatically a repro ?
Are you not confusing with the locally lead cast repro badges made
already in the 60's-70's ?
I'm not a scientist but sorry , cast badges do exist during the war and before , locally made or on a semi industrial base ?
I found the " Apple to Apple" words interesting as everybody is thinking to German made badges in this story and their nice (until late war ) quality , but these were made in the occupied France ? With a terrible lack of almost everything , people wearing wood soles shoes for example ?
So many testimonies in France of these badges appearing long before the 70's and not especially sold to make "big money" by previous owners ?
Nick


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