Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/index.php)
-   Imperial Militaria Forum (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   Reservist Stein (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1006519)

Paul l k 06-07-2019 08:47 PM

Reservist Stein
 
4 Attachment(s)
Hello,

Erwin has asked me to post images of a nice Reservist Stein he has, we would both like to hear your thoughts and opinions.

Cheers from a cool winters day
Paul ...

Paul l k 06-07-2019 08:50 PM

4 Attachment(s)
#2

Erwin 06-07-2019 11:04 PM

Thanks Paul for posting this for me. Steins are not my thing and I've heard that fakes are out there so hoping some truly informed person can weigh in on this one. It would be nice to know one way or the other if it's good or bad and if good to know what it is all about.
Personally I like the picture and the inscription of the military bakery.

Jack (Erwins father)

ROBB 06-08-2019 07:37 AM

I am pretty sure it is a repo . Real ones don’t have the image at the bottom . All the little names should be hand painted and not transfers . Imo. Rob
.

Don D. 06-08-2019 08:51 AM

I believe that they do have lithopanes in the bottom: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=stein

kaiserwilhelm2 06-08-2019 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBB (Post 8467876)
Real ones don’t have the image at the bottom Rob
.


The opposite is true actually. Need better pics to judge authenticity.

Gary B 06-08-2019 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBB (Post 8467876)
I am pretty sure it is a repo . Real ones don’t have the image at the bottom . All the little names should be hand painted and not transfers . Imo. Rob
.

Many IG steins have lithopanes on the bottom of the stein. The lithopanes you do not want to see are the ones with nude women or pornographic images. Names of unit members were transfers and not painted on. The only name that would be painted is the owners around the rim of the stein. Additionally, his name should be on the list of unit names (I did not see his name on the rim but it appears to be engraved on the lid?? What is the rank? .

Have your friend rub his fingers over the transfers to se if the details such as buttons are painted on. Also look at the underside of the pewter lid, it should be a different shade from the exterior lid which has tone/tarnished over time.

Also from the pictures on the side of the stein, this appears to be for a Baker, which are among one of the rarer and more desirable steins.

Gary B

kaiserwilhelm2 06-08-2019 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary B (Post 8468074)
Many IG steins have lithopanes on the bottom of the stein. The lithopanes you do not want to see are the ones with nude women or pornographic images. Names of unit members were transfers and not painted on. The only name that would be painted is the owners.

Have your friend rub his fingers over the transfers to se if the details such as buttons are painted on. Also look at the underside of the pewter lid, it should be a different shade from the exterior lid which has tone/tarnished over time.

Gary B

IMO various individual details would be painted on - like f.e. years of service, name, sometimes company/eskadron. The main image would be a transfer.

grigioverde 06-08-2019 01:19 PM

From what I see I like it. I have been collecting these for 10 years. Here is what I like. 1 smooth handle. 2. high relief lid. 3. Name on the front is also in the list of names on the side. 4. Regiment 122 matches the regimental name on the bottom - Fusilier Regiment Kaiser Franz Joseph von Osterreich, Konig von Ungaren 4. Wurttembergisches. Repros can look good superficially, but generally do not match the unit number and name exactly.
5. I like the lithopane, good detail and common theme, although I have not seen that exact one before. 6. It looks like his first name Karl was engraved on the lid, not common, but nice touch, these things were very personal to the original owners.
A couple more things to look out for, the lid underneath should be fairly shiny and there are usually no maker marks on the bottom of an original. Also look at the thumblift, this can vary, but if it is the Wurttemburg crest, a lion and a deer on each side of a shield, it would be one more clue towards authentic. Rob.

Forssmann 06-08-2019 01:56 PM

I agree with what has alr4ady been mentioned. I'd like to add other points. The red striping has an overlap, indicating it was hand painted. The roster looks hand painted as well. Fake steins do have lithophane bottoms as well, but commonly with lewd scenes (topless woman, provocatively positioned women). Faked steins also have scenes that are likely to appeal to an amateur collector that wouldnt know any better. Like an infantry attack on one side, with a zeppelin in the background, and artillery on the other side. This Stein is pretty specific to one outfit, like authentic steins.

ROBB 06-08-2019 03:38 PM

I was going to buy one recently but thought I would do a search online first and these things have been reproduced since forever. My only experience with this sort of thing is an Uhlans pipe I have and every bit of it including the list of names is hand painted. Good luck I hope it’s real pre Ww1 piece. Rob

Can you show us the makers marks on the bottom

ROBB 06-08-2019 03:51 PM

https://www.realorrepro.com/article/...al-beer-steins

I found this which is quite useful . Rob

Erwin 06-08-2019 04:10 PM

Thanks guys for you wonderful response and just to answer a couple of questions. Firstly there is no makers mark anywhere, the underneath of the lid is quite bright & shiny. Regarding the hand painted buttons etc, yes there seems to be something there when I rub my fingers over it I can feel the raised dots, it is very fine but they are there. Also about the thumblift crest it appears to be just like the Baden helmet plate which I notice has faint traces of red on the shield.
Something else which no one has mentioned is that in one of the photos one can notice a flaw in the porcelain in that purple band around the base.
I'll talk nicely to Paul and see if he will post some more pics of the underneath of the lid etc. Is there anything else someone might want to see more closely?

Thanks again fellas I'm quite encouraged by the response.
Jack

tystgaard 06-08-2019 04:25 PM

Yes
 
Yes its a good one.

BR
Nicolai

ROBB 06-08-2019 04:51 PM

https://www.steveonsteins.com/reserv...reproductions/

More info

Texasuberalles 06-08-2019 07:32 PM

It's a genuine item missing the spike on the helmet and lid on the stein in his uplifted hand.
Those are always the first to go to time and of little consequence.
It is a common unit and configuration but still a wonderful beginning place for these sort of items and is over 100 years old.

kaiserwilhelm2 06-09-2019 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erwin (Post 8468260)
Thanks guys for you wonderful response and just to answer a couple of questions. Firstly there is no makers mark anywhere, the underneath of the lid is quite bright & shiny. Regarding the hand painted buttons etc, yes there seems to be something there when I rub my fingers over it I can feel the raised dots, it is very fine but they are there. Also about the thumblift crest it appears to be just like the Baden helmet plate which I notice has faint traces of red on the shield.
Something else which no one has mentioned is that in one of the photos one can notice a flaw in the porcelain in that purple band around the base.
I'll talk nicely to Paul and see if he will post some more pics of the underneath of the lid etc. Is there anything else someone might want to see more closely?

Thanks again fellas I'm quite encouraged by the response.
Jack


I would like some better pics of the lid. I do not see a welding line. Copies of the lid are usually one piece constructions.
So far however, I have not seen any red lines that makes me think this Stein is a copy.

nzef1940 06-09-2019 03:58 AM

100% original and scarce to a military baker, the personalised engraving to the lid is also a nice touch.

I have been an active collector of Regimental steins for many years, this is a no brainer original.

Erwin 06-09-2019 04:42 AM

Thank you Texasuberalles and Mike for your positive confirmation and all the other posters as well. I'm intending to take a few more close up pics and Paul says he's happy to post them for me so watch this space.

Cheers Jack

90th Light 06-09-2019 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nzef1940 (Post 8468478)
100% original and scarce to a military baker, the personalised engraving to the lid is also a nice touch.

I have been an active collector of Regimental steins for many years, this is a no brainer original.

I am not so sure that he was a baker Mike.

more likely part of the unit assigned to defend and protect the bakers. He looks to be in the 3rd company of Regiment 122. This is a company of infantry soldiers. The motto "Long live the military bakery" is interesting. Does this refer to a role of protection rather than making bread ? It also raises the question, did each company have bakers or each battalion ?

Another interesting anomaly is a Baden thumb lift on Wurttemburg stein. Either the lid has been replaced post war which might explain the name "Karl" being on it, or it is something to do with the 1st Battalion of Infantry Regiment 122 coming from Heilbronn in north Baden. However, was it north Baden in 1912 ? A stein to the 4th Wurttemburg Infantry Regiment number 122 should have a Wurttemburg thumb lift.

Then we have the really odd-ball feature; on the front there are 2 shields. One shield above the year 1911 is the correct colours of the German Reich but the other shield above the year 1912 looks to be green and white, the colours of Saxony. Now this is very interesting because Heilbronn lost its status as an Imperial Free City when the troops of Duke Friedrich I of Württemberg arrived. The duke had conceded the left bank of the Rhine to France during the French Revolutionary Wars but had been compensated with areas on the right bank. This is how Heilbronn and other former Imperial Free Cities became part of Württemberg in 1803."

But Heilbronn did not border on to anything to do with Saxony so I am at a loss to explain why it has that Kingdom/ State shield on it ???

A very interesting but odd-ball Imperial German stein in more ways than one,

Chris

kaiserwilhelm2 06-09-2019 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90th Light (Post 8468525)
I am not so sure that he was a baker Mike.

more likely part of the unit assigned to defend and protect the bakers. He looks to be in the 3rd company of Regiment 122. This is a company of infantry soldiers. The motto "Cheers the military bakery" is interesting. It raises the question, did each company have bakers or each battalion ?

Another interesting anomaly is a Baden thumb lift on Wurttemburg stein. Either the lid has been replaced post war which might explain the name "Karl" being on it, or it is something to do with the 1st Battalion of Infantry Regiment 122 coming from Heilbronn in north Baden. However, was it north Baden in 1912 ? A stein to the 4th Wurttemburg Infantry Regiment number 122 should have a Wurttemburg thumb lift.

Then we have the really odd-ball feature; on the front there are 2 shields. One shield above the year 1911 is the correct colours of the German Reich but the other shield above the year 1912 looks to be green and white, the colours of Saxony. Now this is very interesting because Heilbronn lost its status as an Imperial Free City when the troops of Duke Friedrich I of Württemberg arrived. The duke had conceded the left bank of the Rhine to France during the French Revolutionary Wars but had been compensated with areas on the right bank. This is how Heilbronn and other former Imperial Free Cities became part of Württemberg in 1803."

But Heilbronn did not border on to anything to do with Saxony so I am at a loss to explain why it has that Kingdom/ State shield on it ???

A very interesting but odd-ball Imperial German stein in more ways than one,

Chris

Chris, you are spot on with the shields. Heilbronn though close to Baden was not part of Baden (Kingdom of Prussia) but of Wuerttemberg. That thumb lift makes on sense on this Stein. I find these two irregularities cause for caution.


Furthermore, I am used to seeing the names accompanied by ranks and listed horizontally not vertically. Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.

nzef1940 06-09-2019 06:15 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Here is one for you Chris.

90th Light 06-09-2019 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 (Post 8468536)
Chris, you are spot on with the shields. Heilbronn though close to Baden was not part of Baden (Kingdom of Prussia) but of Wuerttemberg. That thumb lift makes on sense on this Stein. I find these two irregularities cause for caution.


Furthermore, I am used to seeing the names accompanied by ranks and listed horizontally not vertically.

Thanks for your post adding to mine.

Yes, the names being horizontal is unusual. Also the number of names implies he was part of a small unit. My guess, this was the detachment of that company which protected a bakery unit ??? :confused:

Not something that I have ever researched before, Imperial German Army bakers. However, it would appear that they were a separate units in their own right;

"The 1897 model horsedrawn field oven could bake 80 loafs of bread within 100 minutes (before this, it had to be fired two hours long). Twelve vehicles formed a tactical supply unit, a field bakery convoy. From 1914 both these mobile ovens and mobile field kitchens (better known as Gulaschkanonen) played an important role in supplying an ever growing imperial German army in the field." https://ww1photographs.wordpress.com...-field-bakery/

It raises the question why a soldier from the 3rd company of regiment 122 is anything to do with a bakery at all. Surely the Field Bakery column had its own solders like a munition column ??? :confused:

4th Wurttemberg Regiment 122 was made up of 1st and 3rd Battalions from Heilbronn and the 2nd Battalion from Mergentheim. I can not find a connection with Saxony ??? :confused:

It is a puzzling but interesting stein,

Chris

nzef1940 06-09-2019 06:19 AM

3 Attachment(s)
2

kaiserwilhelm2 06-09-2019 06:20 AM

Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.

90th Light 06-09-2019 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nzef1940 (Post 8468547)
Here is one for you Chris.

Very, very nice thumbsup

A hard to find one for sure.

Good score,

Chris

nzef1940 06-09-2019 06:22 AM

Horizontal rosters do appear occasionally, normally with a small roster only, for whatever reason.

nzef1940 06-09-2019 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 (Post 8468556)
Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.

No suprises there, the stein is original, however you know best as an avid regimental stein collector.

kaiserwilhelm2 06-09-2019 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nzef1940 (Post 8468562)
No suprises there, the stein is original, however you know best as an avid regimental stein collector.

As always you address all the factual points made with excellent and detailed counter arguments and never ever stress the fact that you are an accomplished Stein/Porcelain collector. I really respect that.

90th Light 06-09-2019 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 (Post 8468556)
Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Now that I am really looking at the Stein - why are there two different date sets on it? 1910-1911 and 1911-1912????

Rather too many irregularities for my taste - and far from a non-brainer for me.

Yes you are right, I missed those points

This stein is now getting weird. However, I am wondering if he has been in more than one unit/ Battalion/ Regiment or was he a one year volunteer ??? :confused:

In one unit from 1910 to 1911 then another unit from 1911 to 1912 ?

May be he was a baker in field bakery unit from 1910 to 1911 then an infantry soldier from 1911 to 1912 ? or the other way round ?

Was he in a Saxon unit at some stage ?

What a hotch-potch of interesting possibilities,

Chris

nzef1940 06-09-2019 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90th Light (Post 8468569)
Yes you are right, I missed those points

This stein is now getting weird. However, I am wondering if he has been in more than one unit/ Battalion/ Regiment or is he a one year volunteer ??? :confused:

In one unit from 1910 to 1911 then another unit from 1911 to 1912 ?

May be he was a baker in field bakery unit from 1910 to 1911 then an infantry soldier from 1911 to 1912 ? or the other way round ?

Was he in a Saxon unit at some stage ?

What a hotch-potch of interesting possibilities,

Chris

Yes Chris, any of the above is possible, an obscure and interesting stein, but above all original.

I do doubt the one year volunteer scenario though.

90th Light 06-09-2019 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nzef1940 (Post 8468572)

I do doubt the one year volunteer scenario though.

Yes we can probably dismiss that one. When I first looked at it and saw the years of 1911 & 1912, I thought it possible. But the 1910 to 1911 changes that.

The Saxon connection is a mystery,

Chris

nzef1940 06-09-2019 06:38 AM

KW2 and I don’t get along, however I do still love Norway and did many trips there in the 90’s when working for Kvaerner in the UK.

No hard feelings.

90th Light 06-09-2019 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 (Post 8468556)
Also why is there Ludwigsburg on it? This regiment was only stationed there 1883-1890, in 1910 it is stationed in Heilbronn.

Very good point,

the 3rd Wurttemburg Infantry Regiment, number 121 was garrisoned in Ludwigsburg at that time,

It seems to be one anomaly after another,

Chris

nzef1940 06-09-2019 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90th Light (Post 8468582)
Very good point,

the 3rd Wurttemburg Infantry Regiment, number 121 was garrisoned in Ludwigsburg at that time,

It seems to be one anomaly after another,

Chris

Are you just trying to wind up JR? Come on Chris you know it is right, just unusual.

90th Light 06-09-2019 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nzef1940 (Post 8468589)
Are you just trying to wind up JR? Come on Chris you know it is right, just unusual.

No wind up Mike,

you know yourself that Imperial German steins and the history that goes with them floats my boat. I have over a hundred of them and would buy a hundred more if I had not run out of room to display them.

Then there are the ones I have sold over the years like yourself.

kaiserwilhelm2 is absolutely correct. JR's stein has the wrong garrison town on it which only add to all the other interesting anomalies it has.

Personally rather than being a problem, it adds to the interest factor and rarity points of this stein. It certainly is not the usual bog standard, boring infantry stein. Far from it. First one I have ever seen with that field bakery scene on it.

The only down point I can see is the small chip & hole to the base and I am uncertain if the lid is replaced or not,

Chris

nzef1940 06-09-2019 07:04 AM

Rightio, I think it likely has a replacement lid.

90th Light 06-09-2019 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texasuberalles (Post 8468341)
It's a genuine item missing the spike on the helmet and lid on the stein in his uplifted hand.

The spike on the helmet of the soldier on the lid may in fact never have been there. On some of these lids the spike did not mold very well when they poured the liquid pewter. As a result there never was a spike in the first place.

Also the solder is the version hold up a field water bottle. Thus there is no missing lid on the stein in his uplifted hand,

Chris

Gary B 06-09-2019 07:29 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Some IG steins had 2 different side panels to indicate assignment with 2 different units which also might account for the 2 separate dates.

Here is my baker.

Gary B

90th Light 06-09-2019 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary B (Post 8468614)
Some IG steins had 2 different side panels to indicate assignment with 2 different units which also might account for the 2 separate dates.

Here is my baker.

Gary B

Wow, excellent baker stein.

And clearly marked to a Military Field Bakery unit at "Abteilung" level rather than an Infantry regiment.

Very rare,

Chris


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com