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-   -   Show your Officers courses entries in your Soldbuch/Wehrpass for the Artillery (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=995773)

Angel Farré 03-09-2019 10:23 AM

Show your Officers courses entries in your Soldbuch/Wehrpass for the Artillery
 
I am trying to see if all pre and wartime officers not passing trough the Kriegschüle attended any course prior being promoted and if this were always notated in Soldbuch or Wehrpass.

Thanks

Angel[angel]

Angel Farré 03-09-2019 10:38 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Some in my collection

Later Hauptmann Hans Lehmann, in an extra page attached to his Soldbuch with all units and courses he served and atended.

Two courses atended by Jürgen Koke, first suspended, later approved and promoted on April 20th, 1.945. Written in his unit page and in the courses one of his Wehrpass.

Angel[angel]

Luft 76 03-10-2019 11:35 AM

Is that what you want to see ?

https://i51.servimg.com/u/f51/14/38/02/16/img17710.jpg

Angel Farré 03-10-2019 12:18 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Yes, this os what I am asking for.

I have another one with the 7 course.

Angel[angel]

Luft 76 03-10-2019 02:02 PM

Funny thumbsup

Angel Farré 03-10-2019 02:45 PM

Did your man pass the course? Can you show the rest of the Soldbuch?

Mine was promoted to Leutnant and ended the war as a Hauptmann with Panzer Artillerie Regiment 73 with both EK's, Ostmedaille, WBiS and GAB "50"

Angel[angel]

Luft 76 03-11-2019 03:25 AM

Yes he did. But he stayed Leutnant until the end of the war, who for him ended in Brest (Britany) in mid September 44, in a very particular unit :leichte Haubitze Turm Zug 1012 (steel shielded dome 105 mm guns). Few days before, he won EK 1.

https://i51.servimg.com/u/f51/14/38/02/16/img16910.jpg

https://i51.servimg.com/u/f51/14/38/02/16/img17010.jpg

https://i51.servimg.com/u/f51/14/38/02/16/img17210.jpg

https://i51.servimg.com/u/f51/14/38/02/16/img17810.jpg

PanzerElite 03-11-2019 03:54 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Fallschirmjaeger:

1, from EM ---> NCO ---> officer courses in his Wehrpass

Fallschirmschutzlehrgang Stendal 21.6.-30.7.39

u. - Lehrgang v. 8. - 24.9.1941

Zugfuhrerlehrgang bei Waffenschule des Oberbefehlshabers
Sudwest vom 23.10. - 2.12.44,

1.4.-1.5.45 K.O.W.-Lehrgang (Fuhrerschule 1. Fsch.Korps)

2, the according promotions in his Soldbuch

Archi 03-11-2019 01:48 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello !

Very interesting topic !

I hope it is o.k. if I first show an example from infantry (this is the "cleanest" one I have).
It should serve to clarify, what would be the "standard way" to become an officer of the reserve.
Then it might be easier to discuss the various deviations.
(I'll show a second example, where it was very different.)

In my understanding the most regular way to become an Reserve-Officer included the following steps :

1.) First step was, to be selected for the ROB career, in which case one would be appointed R.O.B
(=Reserve-Offizier-Bewerber)

2.) Second step would be to be sent to a school for Fahnenjunker for a (typical) ~3 months course

3.) during which (or at the end), if successful one would be promoted fo Fahnenjunker-Feldwebel.
(I do not know if this is the same as Fähnrich or if there is a difference).

4.) Then one would have to attend a second course, (again ~3 months), during which or at the end

5.) one would finally promoted to : Leutnant d.R. (der Reserve)

- Before beeing sent to these courses, one would typically transferred from the field-unit to a
replacement unit.

- In theory, between the first and the second course, there should be a time of practice,
but often this part was skipped.

This is my current understanding of the topic and I assume it would be similar for artillery and other branches (true ?!).
Any corrections or further infos would be very welcome :peace: !

As all these things varied, so it would be interesting to hear other opinins and/or to see more examples
from other members.

Best regards,

Archi

Archi 03-11-2019 01:55 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Hello !

Here is the other, very different example. This man was always in artillery units :

Lt. Müller was born in 1912 and therefore took several short time (6-8 weeks) courses pre war.
He completed each one with success and was promoted at the end of it :
1937 : he was appointed Unterführer-Anwärter (NCO candidate/aspirant)
1938 : he was promoted to Gefreiter d.R. and appointed Reserve-Offizier-Anwärter
1939 : he was was promoted to Uffz. d.R.
(I tried to arrange the WP scans in a way to make this more clear. I hope it is'nt too confusing).

On 28.8.39 he was drafted at the time of mobilization. He served ~2 month in a replacement unit,
then with 6./AR 54 and finally from April 1940 onward with Art.ABt. 711, with which he saw action in France.
All of his WP pages and an overview of his career can be found here :
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=M%FCller

His Wehrpass was filled in very thoroughly, but there is absolutely NO indication of attending any school
or a specific officer course.
On 1.7.40 he was promoted Feldwebel d.R. (but not Fahnenjunker-Feldwebel !) and on 1.9.40 Leutnant d.R.

He did however attend several courses at the Artillery school at Groß-Born, but only after he had become Officer:
One was a 3 weeks course for Batterie-Führer, the other courses were for Sfl.Art. /Panzerhaubitzen.

Would be interesting to here what others think on this type of career ...
With respect to the very first question, at least this career is a different one.

Best regards,

Archi

Angel Farré 03-11-2019 04:43 PM

Thanks Archi, all Wehrpass I have for Officers make a sole course and promoted at the end to Feldwebel and Leutnant d.R.

Also I have a Wehrpass to an Artillery Officer with no single notation of him attending any course, but he was promoted to Feldwebel d.R. and then Leutnant d.R. ending the war as Hauptmann.

Angel[angel]

Terry K. 03-13-2019 03:57 PM

:banghead:

Archi 03-19-2019 09:02 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello Angel !

Some general observations from the IDs shown so far (always with exceptions) :
- most of the officers took (at least) one ("important") course, during which they were promoted to Fhjk.Fw./Oberfw./Wachtm. rank
and either close to the end of the course or shortly after, were promoted to Lt. d.R.

>> ... all Wehrpass I have for Officers make a sole course and promoted at the end to Feldwebel and Leutnant d.R. <<
That is a very interesting observation, especially as you surely have much more examples than I have.

Perhaps, what I had proposed above, as the "standard path" to become "Offizier der Reserve", should instead be designated :
the "ideal path" (or wishful thinking), as suggested by planners at OKH/HPA.
(At least I understood several articles from Ritgen and others in that way).
And your examples are much more typical for the "normal path" (i.e. what happened in reality), although 2 courses would be desirable.

There are however other examples, that the "2 course path" was implemented (see below) :
- Oberfeldw. Uhlig was appointed Fahnenjunker 1.6.43
- participated in 15. Fhjk.-Lehrgang from Dec. 43 - March 44 (~3 months)
- was promoted to Oberfähnrich (close to the end of the course)
- 2nd course : participated in 3. Oberfähnrich-Lehrgang from end of March - early July 44 (~3 months)
- was promoted Leutnant on 10.6.44, (close to the end of the course), but backdated to 1.5.44 (but in this case : aktiv)

But I also have another example of an early Leutnant (1941), where no course at all is written in the WP.
In addition, I remember a quote, that by 1941/42 (?) a considerable percentage of Officers d.R. hadn't passed a course at all.
(but I cannot find that source at the moment, sorry :: ).

The differences might be dependent on the timeframe, a difference between aktive Offz. and "Offz. der Reserve" or many other things.

To get a better overview, it would be great to see more examples of these courses and the promotion dates connected to them.

I'll post some other infos, that might be related to this (but some of them a bit more speculative), in the other thread opened by Angel:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=995783

Best regards,

Archi

Archi 03-21-2019 02:13 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hello !

Here another slightly different variant, this time for an Artillerist at Jüterbog.
KOB-Lehrgang, 9. O.A.-Lehrgang, but promotion only 5 months after the 2nd course.
He spent most of his eearly career at Art.Schule Jüterbog. Is it possible, that a soldier had to serve
at least 6 months with a frontline unit, before beeing promoted to a Lt. der Reserve :confused: ?

Career in short :
Drafted Dec. 1940, basic training with Ballon-Ers.Battr., Beobachtungs-Lehrabteilung Jüterbog.
He then served for ~ 8 months in the 5. Pz.Beob.Lehrbatterie.
here he was appointed K.O.B. (Kriegsoffizier-Bewerber) on 1.9.41. [p. 22]
[Does someone know, whether there is a major difference to a R.O.B. (Reserve-Offizierbewerber) :peace: ?!]

Before beeing sent to a respective training course, he had to prove himself at the front for 4 months.
(see p. 21 : "v. 14.9.-19.12.41 zwecks Frontbewährung zu le. Beob.Abt. 40 kommandiert").
Have you seen something similar :confused: ?!

Shortly after his return, he was promoted to Gefreiter, participated in a course (Lehrgang) for
K.O.B from 6.1.42 - 23.2.42. (and was promoted during this course to Uffz.).

Second course started immediately after, this time the 9. O.A. Lehrgang beim Lehrstab B der Art.Schule Jüterbog,
25.2.42 - 30.5.42. At the end he was promoted Wachtmeister and was also appointed Offz.Anw., both on 1.6.42.

End of Aug. 1942 he was transferred to a front unit, but it took another 2 month, before he was promoted to
Leutnant d. R. on 1.11.42. In August 1944, he was KIA.

Best regards,

Archi


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